1) Adverts are all well and good, but if every member gets access to adverts, then everyone who has a hub entry can have it advertised; so basically there is no benefit at all, due to the weight of games being advertised.
2) I'm not sure I see a distinction between hub ads and the current listings system; unless you mean putting adverts on other people's hubs, in which case that really depends on if it's going to irritate more people than it pleases.
4) No, for reasons previously explained. It's not 'bad moderation' to know that signatures are more suited to social networking than technical discussion. A little Ad for one of your games as a sig would be fine, but user-defined ones are a no-no.
5) No. This is spam, pure and simple, and it grinds my gears more than almost anything else. There is no legitimate use for mass-paging.
If you want to advertise, get your game listed. Talk about it in Game Updates. Go advertise it outside of BYOND.
If you want to update people on stuff happening in your game;
Game Updates.
Twitter.
Facebook.
Social media. BYOND is not a social networking site.
6, 8) I believe this is already being discussed as a general pager upgrade, with varying degrees of approval. I'm not sure if Tom or Lummox ever had a particular opinion on it, though.
7) The website actually working should not be a membership-only feature. That is absurd.
#21 Jun 2 2012, 5:09 pm
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#22 Jun 2 2012, 5:14 pm
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3. actually exists, members can give out referral links and get ... $5 I think, if the person using the referral link then becomes a member.
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#23 Jun 2 2012, 5:32 pm
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1) I thought about that after I posted it, this is a little self defeating honestly. Instead, I propose some kind of way to gain an advertisement, relative to the quality of the game being advertised. Maybe the member can have a byond admin come inspect their game a bit, and if it turns out to be a good thing they would be rewarded some kind of 'points', which they could spend for a position in the ads rotation.
2) Admittedly, I don't really know how the listings work. From what I can see after going to check out games, it lists them by which has the most players. This don't help the quality games that are trying to get going really. On top of it, the ads from 1 could be coupled with this to have a small little banner placed all over byond (forums and all), instead of it being separate things like I originally thought to have them. 4) This ties into my rambling about how this forum should be extended to invite more than just the developer's. If these people are paying for membership, they deserve a neat little hangout (whether the forum be changed as a whole, or certain parts are added/accommodating to them.) I don't program (I'd like to though!), I do make icons but not actively as of now, nor do I feel the need to share them due to rippers. Therefore, until now, I've not come to these forums -because- they were of no use to me. I'm definitely not recommending this become byond's facebook, but it only seems right to me to give the members a hangout, where they can talk crap, share things about themselves, talk about byond a little, and such. Bundling the hangout with the resources, tech talk, and news of progress for byond; This makes a community, or rather a tighter community. 5) I've always found mass paging to be the most effective way to give people updates on what I'm doing in the absence of my own central place I can reach them at. It can be spam, but I never used it like such (this is why there are report options lol.) Ever tried getting an entire game community to register on a forum? Yeah, not blowing over well! :S If there -was- a better alternative, I'd rather it be what I use, but I can't think of any. 7) I believe you misunderstood. This is the option to stop signatures from showing up for you (a toggle as they call it). Edit: Stephen: I was unaware (although I did see something like that) It just isn't very prominent though. Can't people buying the membership just have the option to write their reference? Seems like they'd want a reward if they wrote the reference in, maybe you guys could notify the person who they got the money from referencing them, and that way they were able to supply some additional reward to the member. (Maybe a custom clothing piece or something, depending on the game of course) I'm just spouting off ideas and stuff. | |
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#24 Jun 2 2012, 6:29 pm
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Even if mass paging should never happen, it does. Because someone is really going to think twice when that warning pops up. I've gone to banning people that mass page me. "Hurr duur, you should support games I support because you're my friend". Maybe I'll support them when they're not all frigging DBZ RP mmkay? And there have been several solutions proposed to prevent this mass paging, but life goes on...
What about limiting time spent in a BYOND game? Members get unlimited, non-members get 4 hours. And all of your keys are linked so you can't multikey your way out. | |
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#25 Jun 2 2012, 7:04 pm
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That really massively restricts the developer's own communities, and can't be an attractive prospect.
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#26 Jun 2 2012, 10:37 pm
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I think Tom was onto something with the charging per hub creation. I don't think you should get free hubs with memberships, though.
There seems to be a few ways to do it. One way is to only be able to buy hubs as a member. Meaning, you have to buy a membership and then pay additional money to make hubs. In that case, it makes sense to bundle a free hub with a membership purchase. Another way would be to allow anyone to buy a hub, regardless of membership or not. In this model, you could make it so having membership gives you a discount on buying a hub. Of those two ways, the first one sounds like it would make the most money. (Obviously you are charging more than the second.) But, given that the second is cheaper, more people might buy it, if they were only looking to get a hub and didn't care for the other membership perks. In that way, you would make more money by the sheer amount of purchases. | |
Very good points. I personally prefer the idea of being able to purchase hubs regardless of whether you're a member or not. It seems like it would cause less trouble in the community, and yet would still get plenty of sales.
This does not, however, change the fact that memberships need to be more appealing to the non-developer portion of the community. The only idea I've really liked so far is the modified version of signatures where it advertises a game,or library, etc. That doesn't really appeal to the non-developers much, though. Perhaps we could make it so you can show one of the games you've favorited in your signature, assuming of course that it is not a rip or fan game? Well, something along those lines anyway. It seems like it might be a more versatile feature that way. Something for non-developers seems to be the toughest to come up with, though. I can't help thinking about various other services I've seen where you pay a small monthly membership fee in order to access a list of often simple, yet addictive little games that you can only play with membership. Obviously charging the community to play developers games is a bad idea, but perhaps something could be worked out to provide a good game or a small list of games that BYOND maintains and only allows members to join and play? Excluding, perhaps, a small demo of course; just to lure people in. I think this would be most effective using the new flash client, but it could work without it as well. I'm sure this could be arranged somehow, even if a 'team' has to be 'hired' to make and maintain this. The real question is whether it is worth it, and I definitely think that is at least a maybe. Now, while it isn't a non-developer appealing perk, I also want to bring up that I think referrals should be improved. I'm going to use NEStalgia as an example, again, because if I recall correctly they have an image link on their website that sends the clicker to the BYOND website. My question is would this link even work for referrals? Because if not, it should. Anyone who clicks it, and becomes a BYOND Member should count as a referral and give the bonus. Maybe that's already the case, not sure, but I figure it's worth asking and/or suggesting. | |
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#28 Jun 3 2012, 5:30 am
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I think the business model intentionally isn't aiming to be appealing to non-developers though, that's the point, and why the perks aren't there. The monetization of that side of things comes through the subscription model, in what is probably the most mutually beneficial way. When a game does well, it's developer profits, and BYOND profits.
I wouldn't expect to see memberships made more appealling to non-developers really. It isn't really in line with what Tom's explained his business plan to be. Now, while it isn't a non-developer appealing perk, I also want to bring up that I think referrals should be improved. I'm going to use NEStalgia as an example, again, because if I recall correctly they have an image link on their website that sends the clicker to the BYOND website. My question is would this link even work for referrals? Because if not, it should. Anyone who clicks it, and becomes a BYOND Member should count as a referral and give the bonus. Should think this already works, if they used their referral link there. | |
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#29 Jun 4 2012, 1:28 am
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I think selling hubs individually for a small price is a reasonable perk, and we could include a hub with Membership or something like that. Of course we'd ideally want some value with Membership that would appeal to the playerbase outside of those that just want to generously contribute to the project. I think that an improved chat system and the ability to immediately get into games that have startup ads would be pretty nice.
We won't put anything to cripple or limit games for non-Members because we want BYOND to be a platform that developers know can be used to target as many users as they want, no strings attached (same reason we don't charge for keys and, in the advent that we go under, will just provide a way to easily convert existing users). Ultimately, while I think Membership can certainly help us fund some parts of the project, for this to be really successful we will need to work with games that are themselves successful. It is clear that people are more likely to pay for a BYOND game than directly contribute to BYOND, so I'm hoping that we can have a few hits and create a win-win situation for their developers and ourselves. That's been the motivation for this new standalone setup, which will hopefully allow a few of these games to get some traction outside of the smallish community here. In return for this, we're hoping that enough will profit-share with us through the subscription system. | |
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#30 Jun 4 2012, 1:45 am
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Tom wrote:
In return for this, we're hoping that enough will profit-share with us through the subscription system. BYOND receiving its cut of the subscription fees should be the requirement for the use of the standalone client. No business makes money by giving away their best products and then hoping that people will be nice enough to throw a little money their way. You need to trade value for value, and the standalone client is incredibly valuable. | |
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#31 Jun 4 2012, 3:49 am (Edited on Jun 4 2012, 3:54 am)
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I agree. BYOND needs to be clear cut on the matter if they're to profit from the time spent developing the standalone client and Flash support.
If games are making money through the use of them, there's no reason why BYOND doesn't deserve a cut in the profit. I think a figure between 10 to 20 percent would be reasonable but any more than that could cause problems for the developers (some may have to commission art work which can be expensive, for example). I'm not sure how much money you'll be able to make off of ad revenue, but that seems like something else that'll be a boon to BYOND once the Flash support is released. BYOND also needs to have a system whereby players can buy game cash for special shop items. This would eliminate the need for games to go outside of BYOND's system to make money with alternatives to monthly subscriptions and whatnot. It's definitely an exciting direction BYOND is taking and I hope they can finally make a decent amount of money. | |
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#32 Jun 4 2012, 4:57 am
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Right, the plan is to require use of our sub system if a game is to charge through these clients, but we aren't requiring games to charge to use the client (most games will probably be free) Also, enforcing this isn't trivial (since it has to work without hub accessibility) but we can, for instance, restrict use of the upcoming flash system to games we approve.
That said, I do hope that people want to use all of these new things at least partially to support the system they put their time into learning. | |
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#33 Jun 4 2012, 4:59 am
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You're thinking of providing "all of the development tools" but you'll restrict the usage of these tools to games you approve?
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Tom wrote:
but we can, for instance, restrict use of the upcoming flash system to games we approve. That put a bad taste in my mouth. | |
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#35 Jun 4 2012, 10:51 am
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Why? If a game isn't approved by BYOND, it's either going to use illegal content (DBZ rips, f.ex) or be poorly designed, even compared to what most BYOND games have to offer (which is already pretty poor).
I for one don't want to be forced to remove my project's ties to BYOND because websites like Kongregate are being flooded with DBZ rip submissions. The Flash support could have a negative impact on BYOND's reputation if it allows games of a low quality to represent them. | |
Writing A New One wrote:
Why? If a game isn't approved by BYOND, it's either going to use illegal content (DBZ rips, f.ex) or be poorly designed, even compared to what most BYOND games have to offer (which is already pretty poor). But restricting it for games that they approve? , I sure wouldn't want to wait just to play a simple project I made to test with some friends over Facebook. I'm sure providing the ability to use Flash only for BYOND Members would be a nice way to go at it. | |
Kozuma3 wrote:
Writing A New One wrote: Actually instead of making it a membership perk maybe these features should be bought. Like in GameMaker there is a trial of the engine but you can get the whole engine for a set price. Also you can get the XTML version for a price too. This sort of system should be in byond were the standalone could be bought for something like 20$ or something. The same could be done for the flash client. People would pay for these since they are valuable things and worth buying unlike the membership is now. | |
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#38 Jun 4 2012, 1:50 pm
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I would dislike to see our HUBs costing money, it would be cool if non-byond members could have one paying a small ammount, but it would be awful if the BYOND Members had to pay for something they were "supposed" to have.
Anyway, I think the games' creators should be more up to reward those people who have became BYOND Members by being linked by the game (So you get $5 or something like that). But I have honestly never seen this happening in games, only some special features, and those were in the games where "fans" would promote the game if you were BYOND Member with a decent ammount of followers / subscribers / fans. I think there should be new services in BYOND created by the members, I mean, BYOND Panel is awesome, and it rarely gets advertised even though it offers something great for a small ammount of money. What if there were more services in BYOND that helped the user to get their game ready to the public? We had Resource Center (by PopLava), but it seems to be dead now. If I were Tom, I would advertise those services made for BYOND Users, even if they costed some money. | |
Dj dovis wrote:
Kozuma3 wrote: Piracy here I come. | |
I support focusing on the members. There are plenty of kids out there willing to waste their money on games, that's well known nowadays. The thing here is giving them something to waste the money on.
The original poster had a nice little idea with forum signatures, they are nice and personable. Yes, they do take moderation, and that's good for a community. If the moderator's say "ugh moderating signatures no thanks", then, they aren't bearing the right kind of attitude for promoting the company imo. Signatures alone wont be anything significant though, it's just a nice little trinket among others to add to the overall appeal of Byond as a whole.
The forum appears to be simply a developer's hangout, or an artist's hangout, which is fine. However, it should be open to everyone, giving them one reason or another to at least check it out. (This opens up opportunities to make money via ads as a perk)
Like in the topic this one stemmed from, the varying membership packages are appealing to me. Others agreed, and apparently Falacy I think it was claimed people claimed they would buy them if a 1 month was offered. My take on this is throw these membership packages out there as a testing grounds to gauge your potential in it. Speculation can only teach you so much, you can never know without a little tinkering around!
I like the hub passes/codes being added as perks to bigger membership bundles, that means developer's will buy the bigger packages (not only are they cheaper in the long run, but, they get a hub with it!)
A few things I imagine to benefit the desire to be a byond member are;
1) Forum ads (for developer's games)
2) Hub ads (showing up on the byond.com games area as an ad)
3) References; If a particular game pushed the member to buy the membership for the byond member perks in their game, commission them money for each member that joined because of them. Byond makes money from the memberships as is, therefore it would be beneficial to reward these programmers for drawing in new revenue.
Non Developer Stuff ---
4) Signature (previously suggested)
5) Mass Paging Ability
6) Ability to organize byond pager contacts into categories
7) Ability to toggle signature viewing for those of you who are unfortunate enough to still have bad net in these days.
8) A primitive thought; Perhaps the pager could have an optional messenger as opposed to 'pages', where you could have IM's with contacts (even with multiple contacts in one chat.) It's a useful way to contact people who have memberships. Although, now that I think of it, unless the rate at which people are getting memberships improves, this will be sorely underused (as opposed to the existing, free im's, the only downside is you have to get the contact's email, but that's not too hard) This is something that could be worked on in concept.
This is all that comes to mind currently. If I conjure up anything else I'll probably come blabbing about it later.
Edit: By giving programmers perks/rewards for getting you members, you effectively fund them to continue working their ways. If a programmer was to receive a decent amount from references, he could hire icon artists or additional programmers, anyone to help the project. This gives byond higher quality games. Most programmers are looking to profit. That's how it should be really, as long as the members are being catered to that they're profiting from.
summary: help them help you.