ID:1168212
 
I've been with BYOND since late 2005 and it's played a huge role in my life. Between introducing me to the world of game development and being an outlet for stress and creativity, I've loved my experiences with the site and community. However I'm starting to grow tired of the laziness and poor design on BYONDs part and I know I'm far from the only one. I have a game that I'm only about two days worth of work from completing and I don't even feel as though I should bother publishing it to BYOND but porting it to Java instead. I'll go through some of the gripes by category;




Website:
The new website is definitely an improvement in contrast to the older one, however the community has been condensed to the forums and hardly much else. The guilds were removed when they could have easily been fixed/updated to serve as 'sub-sites' with their own updates and game listings(I don't mean a list of guild favorites). Guilds were an excellent way for the community to find and follow games of their own interests rather than just searching "Action".

Another highlight that was removed(and the community clearly wants back) are blogs. The blogs were a highlight of community activity and made for an ideal method of updating the community with game development and get feedback. Hell, their isn't even a designated forum category for this. As for the argument over people blogging about life through their blogs, who cares. A majority of the community consists of gamers; not strictly developers. Personally, I could do without the CSS', but removing blogs altogether certainly wasn't a good move.

This isn't as much of an issue as the former, however the standards for game listings are obnoxiously low. I don't want to see this. Some of the volunteers must not even bother logging into the games and if they do, their judgement is lacking. If BYOND is to improve it's image there has to be stricter guidelines to game submission. Quality is better than quantity and this is a perfect example of when that phrase is relevant.

Lastly, between the excessive use of borders, awkward top bar, and the abuse of drop shadows, the overall design of the website isn't anything to be overtly proud of. If you can't do it hire a professional web designer. If money is an issue, start a donation pool or even ask the community. People in the community have expressed their willingness to help behind the scenes on man occasions but they're always turned down for no good reason.




Software:
While I don't have as much of an issue with the software as other people do, it's stagnating. The last update to the software that I recall was the addition of tabs(which aren't even done like they should be done). Even when you disable tabs they just go invisible. Tabs still open/collect in the background when they're not being used. Disabled means completely, not partially. I understand that the Flash client is where your attention is going(at least I like to think it is) the feature requests are piling up and people are starting to lose faith that they'll ever be added. Most of which are simple things that I'm sure could be done with just a day or two of work. If navigating BYONDs programming is that much of a hassle, just restart. It would not only be worthwhile in the long run, but you could improve native support for map text, pixel movement and more.

Unlike most, I don't agree with removing the pager altogether but the 'secret' new pager that everybody knows about is a minor improvement to what we have. Interface design isn't BYONDs strong point so let more people in who actually know a thing or two about it instead of attempting to make something on your own. Just like a biologist doing chemistry; it's going to blow up in your face.




Closing:
As I said before, I have grown fond of BYOND and what it can do but it's falling behind times(even for it's tiny niche of a community). Take the slowly descending player count as an indicator of this. People have mentioned time and time again that they disagree with the way things are being done. Whether it's due to laziness, lack of motivation, or separate engagements; do something.

I appreciate your reading and eagerly await a response. I would also like to encourage the community to voice their opinion over this as well.
Very true kumorii.
This kind of post comes up every so often. It is always full of assumptions and veiled insults. Although I suppose that's what happens when you try to tell someone how to do their job. Nevertheless, I'll indulge and address some points here but will not engage this further because it's pointless.

1) Blogs and guilds are not coming back. I gave this very careful consideration when we made the change over a year ago. BYOND needed to pick a direction and getting into the blogging social networking was not it. Also, the traffic to those pages was miniscule, and they were by far the biggest source of trolling and moderation.

2) If you want a venue to discuss your game, simply make a post about it in your game forum. This will direct to the updates forum, which is viewed by a lot more people than the guilds were. It also makes more sense to group posts about games under games. The main downside is that currently this is a Member-only feature but that will be going away soon.

3) The game you linked as meeting "obnoxiously low" standards isn't even approved and as such isn't in the front page index. We elected to allow pending games to crosspost to the forum page so that there'd be more activity, but if it becomes an issue (eg, with a lot more approved submissions), we can switch that off. At this point, BYOND has relatively few active developers so the quality bar isn't all that high.

4) DM's tab change is purely superficial as we've always used tabs in the background to keep multiple windows open. When tabs are turned off, it'd still be annoying to disable them because you'd always have to save your work just to engage a new tab. I have no idea why this is an issue.

5) The new pager is a huge improvement over the current one, but the improvement is mainly for new users since the primary thing it does is provide access to games. And yes, this was _supposed_ to be a secret just to prevent too much influx of complaints on an incomplete product.. but I guess I can't even trust our testers to follow one simple rule.

6) BYOND has a nearly infinite list of feature suggestions and it's simply unrealistic to think that these will ever be met. You are correct that doing a complete rewrite would be the most direct way to "fix" the product. But that is even more unrealistic with the budget, not to mention I have no interest in devoting another ten years to doing that. There's also no reason why we have to be the ones to do that. We don't have a patent on this idea; do it yourself. I am proud of the current product and I consider it mostly stable. It has a zillion flaws and is based on a lot of legacy code but meets a certain niche. If that niche doesn't suit you or the games you want to make, then switch to Java or Flash or Unity. I don't mean that as a snide remark; BYOND is not for everyone.

When we release this pager in the next week or two, I'll make an accompanying post (maybe a video blog.. I have a lot to say) about the state of BYOND and why posts like these are, to put it gently, insulting and nonsensical.
Oooh! Do a video blog!

I do think people need to be more polite in their criticisms. If it's so easy to do what you suggest, do it yourself.

I appreciate your work, Tom.
Kumorii wrote:
Some of the volunteers must not even bother logging into the games and if they do, their judgement is lacking. If BYOND is to improve it's image there has to be stricter guidelines to game submission. Quality is better than quantity and this is a perfect example of when that phrase is relevant.

I'd have to contend that implementing stricter guidelines given the current rate of submissions would only further stagnate our listings. While I would certainly love to hold submissions to a higher standard and have spoken up about it before, the fact is that we're currently in no position to be so picky about what we accept and what we don't. Raising the barrier of entry when the bar is already so low means everyone will trip over it.
In response to LordAndrew
Once again, this is no excuse. Attempting to make the site look good by listing shitty games just does the opposite. Quality over quantity.
In response to Kumorii
Kumorii wrote:
Quality over quantity.

Real talk.
I couldn't agree more with everything in this post, but rather than just agree I'd like to offer my input on each point as well.



Website:
This website has incredible potential, but the problem is that it is failing to live up to it because it lacks the necessary updates and considerations. Don't get me wrong, the new website is much better than the old, and it did get me to start using the forums, but think about what the new users see here. I mean the homepage of the website, the first thing anyone new should see... Uses an image displaying games that are years old and that are likely rarely if ever playable anymore. I know that for a fact because I recognize one of them as Ultimatum.

The search functions of the website are also far from ideal, and are relied on way too much. Why do we have to search for specific tags when there could just be tabs for each genre or type? Why is there no check box for users to have fan-games appear or not appear in the tabs and/or search? Why isn't there some sort of box to display the game of the month on the website? or that can serve as an 'ad slot' for developers to purchase use of on a monthly basis? Also, moving away from that area, why is the website so difficult to use on mobile? This one is strictly based off what I've heard here and there, but if the website is difficult to use on mobile and portable devices it will largely hurt its popularity with both new and old users. That's a really popular function now. That's the most serious of the appearance issues, though I really do think the site could use a much more appealing set up visually; you would be surprised how much of a difference it can make. I mean even proboards, free forum host, has stepped it up to where users can easily provide a much more appealing website-like forum without even touching the source code much; just with easy built-in tools! It's not right when a free forum host can easily produce a better looking website.

I also believe that there is too much focus on moving away from non-development based content. I understand that BYOND is not a social networking site like facebook, but that does not mean the players and developers on BYOND cannot use it like one. I remember when I came back around quite some time ago I had recently learned a bit about CSS, and I was looking forward to working with it on my page but that was no longer possible. Then, just to make matters worse, I stopped finding myself roaming around BYOND unintentionally as much because I no longer came across the guild pages and blogs that use to catch my attention on google. So, by removing those features which were, yes more like social networking features, you also reduced possible traffic and removed a good way to practice CSS.

The CSS part being the least important, because the blogs them selves were useful on their own; especially since they stopped a lot of the unnecessary posts we see on the forum now. I mean, really, if I see one more thing about Naruto, even if it is the best Naruto game ever, then I may end up breaking a lot of the communities monitors when I scream as if I were ascending to Super Saiyan 3 for the first time.



Software:
I'm not too bothered here, either, but it is starting to get frustrating to see so many features get so much support and yet there is nothing saying they will for sure be put in. I'm not asking that you stop your current work, or anything; it'd just be nice to see a solid statement that they will be added. You may be surprised how useful some of the 'little things' like map zooming options are, and you may be surprised how frustrating things like the blurry graphics are. Some developers are trying, they really are, but it's difficult being left in the dark about what is or isn't being done so much. I'm the first to say that being asked about a release date when you can't for sure give one is frustrating, but at the very least try to be more informative about what's going on.

I'm on the fence here because I know there has to be hard work being put it, and that it has to be frustrating to deal with all of this, but as an upcoming developer I just want to see BYOND keep on growing and improving in all the right ways; even if that means having to help out with donation campaigns or wait a couple years with minimal updates while you redesign the software. Just. Do. Whatever. It. Takes. Please. I honestly believe that I want BYOND to survive and prosper just as much as a founder would, and that many other people feel the same.



Closing:
The community has its good points and bad points, and I may get frustrated to no end sometimes, but BYOND means a lot to me. One of its games changed my life, and so did it, and if anything that is an understatement not an exageration. So, all I can say is I'm prepared to do almost anything I can to help see it grow and improve instead of decline or fade away; please let me and everyone else who feels the same be a bigger help to BYOND and help support it in any ways that we can.

I sincerely thank anyone who reads this for taking the time to do so, and I assure you that I do not mean any harm or negativity with any of this; no matter how it may sound I am really just being serious and sincere because I want BYOND to do well.

-Added after reading the responses-

I don't mean to tell anyone how to do their job, and I don't expect to get my way on everything. I just wanted to stop by and offer my thoughts and opinions incase they could help provide any kind of improvement to BYOND; big or small. I care about BYOND, I think it is great, and that is actually why I speak the way I do. I don't for see myself leaving and going somewhere else, but I don't want to see BYOND go anywhere other than forward toward further success either.
The problem with these topics is there's a lot of exposition and no practical solutions. Lord knows, I did one myself way back when.

Improvement requests are .. whatever, really. We've got pretty much 1000 of those, quite literally. While this may be posted in a more grandiose "I have cast my expert eye over the situation and surmised the following" format, it is basically just feature request topic 1001.

How about an improvement plan instead of a request? With business model and projections to finance it. I'd love to discuss one of those, refine one of those, see/gather figures or even anecdotal market research etc. Anything other than exposition, to be honest. The 'Financing BYOND' topic certainly has taken a better approach than this one by acknowledging BYOND is first and foremost a financial entity that has costs that must be met, and developmental costs that must be met to see changes occur.

I mean if I were Tom, I'd essentially ignore that too, nice and novel though it would be. It's not exactly like we have any angel investors or successful $250k+ revenue project managers weighing in on the discussion, so he's not exactly being advised by his betters here, is he now.

It's very easy (and useless) to throw conjecture and exposition around. Much more difficult (and useful) to make a workable plan.
In response to Stephen001
Stephen001 wrote:
It's not exactly like we have any angel investors or successful $250k+ revenue project managers weighing in on the discussion, so he's not exactly being advised by his betters here, is he now.

I have been away from this community for quite sometime so this might have been discussed but why doesn't byond just start a kickstarter or a fund raising campaign or something to raise the money needed ? I have seen projects raise way above $250k. I would think if byond got a good enough reason and would portray the kickstarter well they would be able to get the money needed. Just as long as people think its a worthy cause they will donate to this great program.

Just on a side note :
I said Byond would need a good enough reason because its not like you can just walk onto kickstarter and say "we want cash just cause". I do think that a good enough reason would be the re-write which would make the engine accessible most platforms. I could literally write most of the kickstarter article(The thing that describes the project and the changes that you want done) and convince some people to donate and I am just a user who hasn't even been on this very long. I bet Tom could do much better with a Kickstarter campaign but thats just my thinking.
Everyone is making the assumption that we want to devote another N years to completely rewrite BYOND. This is a BIG assumption!!!

First off, BYOND has been a complete failure as a business. A complete rewrite does not necessarily change that. One has to establish a good business model to get investors (whether privately or through a shared system like kickstarter). Typically, programs of this nature make money by selling the toolkit, which is something we don't do, and probably never will do.

Secondly, I don't think people really understand how complicated the BYOND system is. We have, quite simply, bitten off way more than we can chew, which is a big part of the reason development seems so stagnant. BYOND initially was designed for a fairly straightforward goal (tile-based roguelikes) but got into the general game-creation business, along with a lot of social-networking related foo and that is just a lot to handle. If we were to start fresh, the first thing I'd do is simplify and target a specific niche so we can do one thing very well instead of trying to half-ass everything.

With this new pager comes a new business model and I hope it will provide us enough of a sustaining income to at least maintain this project... because without that, the whole thing is going under and then a lot of you will learn that we actually do a lot day to day just to keep things running. So that's my first priority. If we do better than that, we can talk about monumental changes.

As I've said probably a dozen times here, I consider BYOND a largely complete program, even though we have 100 pages of feature requests. If it doesn't do what you want, today, then you probably should look elsewhere for your needs. What I can tell you is that the program now is a heck of a lot more powerful than it was 10 years ago, yet we had developers making very good games (even good games for today) back then.
Then at least share with us what /is/ going on behind the scenes! We don't care if it isn't anything noteworthy. Just knowing that the devs are still alive and kicking would keep the community much more content. Simply posting in the Off Topic board over a recent biking trip or your dog(like the good-old-days) would be great.

We just want to know that there is a figurehead to the community that cares.
Well I totally see where you are coming from. If it was me and I had a project I would totally not want to restart the project I have already pretty much finished.

As for the business model well I am hoping that your changes to the business model will provide you with enough money to sustain BYOND. If I may suggest a change that could raise money would be to sell your additions like the standalone and the flash client or increase the percentage taken from the subscriptions that are done through the BYOND additions. Just a thought though.
In response to Tom
I told you people just want you to be more active on the forums....
I don't really know how I seemed before, but I hope it did not come off as insulting, or nonsensical. I just care enough about BYOND to worry about it, too; so I end up thinking a lot and wanting to help but unfortunately that's difficult for any one person to do at this point.

I think a lot of people just want to help, but feel like their hands are tied, and even more people have gotten where they just need frequent re-confirmation. I believe that there could literally be a Facebook, twitter, forum topic, or similar saying "Drank a cup of a coffee, and worked on BYOND." once a day and people would feel more content than now.

That may not make any sense, and it doesn't mean it should be done, but while some people may have differing opinions about things like guilds and blogs it does seem like nearly everyone agrees on some form of consistent assurance being helpful.

Anyways. I do hope the new business model helps, and whether it does or does not, if a discussion about business models and earning income would be more productive and helpful then I'm all for it.
It's pretty clear that BYOND was designed for a specific kind of game. However, there's actually no examples (preferably from Tom or Lummox JR... or Dan...) of the kind of game BYOND was actually designed for. Along with A2J2TIWARI's Resource Packs, someone should make a demo game that shows off what exactly you (Dantom) intended for BYOND from the very beginning.
In response to Kumorii
Kumorii wrote:
Then at least share with us what /is/ going on behind the scenes! We don't care if it isn't anything noteworthy. Just knowing that the devs are still alive and kicking would keep the community much more content. Simply posting in the Off Topic board over a recent biking trip or your dog(like the good-old-days) would be great.

We just want to know that there is a figurehead to the community that cares.

A.T.H.K wrote:
I told you people just want you to be more active on the forums....

^ Both of these.
Don't expect this to be an amazing speech or anything like the other have done.

Everyone has voiced their concerns and a lot have probably not mentioned their's.

Firstly - Tom you deserve a lot of credit as lets face it not many of us would dedicate 10 years + of their life to a project such as this, even after stating the business to be failing you still stick to your guns that's admirable to say the least.

Secondly - I know there are ton's of developers and community members willing to help byond out in anyway possible, the first reaction to that should be to accept some help as it could not only boost the morale of byond, but also increase your business opportunities elsewhere from investments or advertising. If you do accept help don't just accept on the developer side, you could also perhaps use visual updates as in my personal opinion I think the byond website is very bland looking and could be updated, not a priority but something to be considered. Perhaps we could get a kickstarter started for donations to help manage funds as this could release a lot of stress from you and your team, heck even a donation pool would be great.

There are tons of feature requests so i don't expect you to prioritize those when you have to make this a profitable business, but as stated by those above a solid statement on requests would give those requests a status change.

I have personally been on byond since 05 on old keys may not be the oldest member here by a long shot, but nonetheless i have seen byond grow and would like it to continue growing, its okay to accept help that's the main point of this post, just someway anything at all people can help and they will at a drop of a hat, I'm positive the more accomplished developers would love to help out most would probably even work for free - just an assumption.

Anyway little post over enjoy.
I think it'd be cool if BYOND were regarded as something as fun and user-friendly as Scratch apparently is.

http://code.org
As far as quality: I think most developers are younger here, that being said they seem to be in a rush to emulate what they see or own something of their own. Which in itself isn't terribly bad. I do think that if more original, fun and interesting games are made that appeal to the crowd that play here it could be a way to stem the tide(so to speak).

I prefer positive means to an end, I think that the standalone capability is a great step in the right direction. I think that a good example of what I mean is space station 13 (the game that so many people seem to dislike or hate) but consistently has over 100 players at just about any given time. There's a whole wide internet out there. I am in agreement that Byond is stable and capable in terms of ability. I say this because I've never come across a problem that couldn't really be fixed, or something that couldn't be done due to lack of tools, it's usually something I personally need to learn or improve on. Alot of people don't really understand how awesome that really is- to have a tool that can actually grow with your imaginations.

Ultimately I think that one of the best ways to turn things around are to expose the rest of the internet to great games made by Byond.(which it seems like that direction is being chosen) Not only would that bring exposure and with it a chance for self sustaining, but perhaps spark a change. I think that people here like to "troll" and "insult" because it's the "in" thing to do, fight over concepts that aren't theirs to begin with, and try to derail or copy another person's work to spite them, they just don't realize how ignorant they look when compared to the "real" world and some exposure to people who don't have the same mentality would most likely do wonders.

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