In response to SilkWizard (#19)
SilkWizard wrote:
BYOND is already THE PLACE for DBZ and Naruto MORPGs on the internet... but that's not much of a business model. Worse, no real Anime or Fan Game developers even exist anymore. 99% of the games are rips, and 100% of them use the same gameplay style. The prominence of those games has been chasing away potential players and real developers for years now.

~True, but like Tom said alot of BYOND's money comes from anime games. I honestly do not think BYOND can take a hit like that at this moment, but I know nothing so yeah.

SilkWizard wrote:
BYOND's future lies in nurturing quality original games, and in becoming known as a place where creativity thrives. At this point the only way for BYOND to start to bringing in new players and game developers is to show the best of what BYOND can do. This new site update does just that, by showcasing a much wider variety of the cool unique BYOND games.

~This is VERY true but with majority of the community already fixed on making anime games. There needs to be some leverage like weaning the community off the whole anime fixation onto better "original" games. So far very very very few original games interest me and im not alone.

There are a heck of a lot more people out there looking for fun original games to play then there are looking for a crappy Naruto rip to grind in.

~Pls tell me a few. Not that I play naruto rips. But like i said above i think only decadence and sunday the 19th are the only original games that interest me so far.
In response to Mr.Professional (#20)
Mr.Professional wrote:
~True, but like Tom said alot of BYOND's money comes from anime games. I honestly do not think BYOND can take a hit like that at this moment, but I know nothing so yeah.

I think you are overestimating the effect of the front-page on existing players. Truth is, we changed the entire site around a few weeks ago and it hasn't changed our numbers one bit (traffic has declined a little as expected due to the season-- kids being back in school-- but pretty much everything is the same). The fangames are still there; heck they are still even listed. People will still play them. The main difference is that, hopefully, new users will see the other games a little better now, and new developers will see that making original game is an option to attract players by virtue of the increased visibility.

There are a heck of a lot more people out there looking for fun original games to play then there are looking for a crappy Naruto rip to grind in.

~Pls tell me a few. Not that I play naruto rips. But like i said above i think only decadence and sunday the 19th are the only original games that interest me so far.

I think he's referring to the general public, not the current BYOND audience. Most BYONDers are fangame-players because they found BYOND through a fangame search. We're trying to change that.
In response to Tom (#21)
Tom wrote:
I think he's referring to the general public, not the current BYOND audience. Most BYONDers are fangame-players because they found BYOND through a fangame search. We're trying to change that.

~With the exception of the million DBZ rips and crappy naruto rips that alll use the same base. I find the quality of anime games better then most original ones. BLN,GOA, and especially DMG(probably the best quality anime game out there. Too bad its littered with trolls.) Maybe its because im looking at games from the wrong developers, once again I know nothing.
In response to SilkWizard (#19)
SilkWizard wrote:
Worse, no real Anime or Fan Game developers even exist anymore. 99% of the games are rips, and 100% of them use the same gameplay style.

What worries me the most is how accurate that statement really is. It would be neat if someone started mapping the anime games like they would an evolutionary tree. Zeta would be the common ancestor with each revision going off into a new branch.

Anyway, the way I see it having a "Show Fangames" button is still giving fangames special treatment. Why should they get a big dedicated button when every other game has to use the tags? Fangames should use the tags just like every other game.
In response to SuperAntx (#23)
SuperAntx wrote:
Anyway, the way I see it having a "Show Fangames" button is still giving fangames special treatment. Why should they get a big dedicated button when every other game has to use the tags? Fangames should use the tags just like every other game.

I agree. In fact, that's pretty much the exact argument I made to Tom when that button first appeared.

Thankfully, the design he has currently settled on is great.
In response to SilkWizard (#24)
SilkWizard wrote:
SuperAntx wrote:
Anyway, the way I see it having a "Show Fangames" button is still giving fangames special treatment. Why should they get a big dedicated button when every other game has to use the tags? Fangames should use the tags just like every other game.

I agree. In fact, that's pretty much the exact argument I made to Tom when that button first appeared.

To be fair, fangames aren't treated like every other game in that, while they use tags, they don't appear without the tag (in the "all" sort). I think, however, this is balanced by the plethora of such games in the system and the fact that non-fangames really stand to benefit from the extra promotion.
In response to Tom (#25)
Tom wrote:
To be fair, fangames aren't treated like every other game in that, while they use tags, they don't appear without the tag (in the "all" sort). I think, however, this is balanced by the plethora of such games in the system and the fact that non-fangames really stand to benefit from the extra promotion.

I agree with that.

While original games have to work for their players, fan games can cash in on someone else's hard work and draw players in with name recognition, etc. In the end I think that this new system pretty much balances everything out.
In response to SilkWizard (#26)
SuperAntx wrote:
Anyway, the way I see it having a "Show Fangames" button is still giving fangames special treatment. Why should they get a big dedicated button when every other game has to use the tags? Fangames should use the tags just like every other game.

True.

SilkWizard wrote:
Worse, no real Anime or Fan Game developers even exist anymore. 99% of the games are rips, and 100% of them use the same gameplay style.

Very True.

SlikWizard wrote:
While original games have to work for their players, fan games can cash in on someone else's hard work and draw players in with name recognition, etc. In the end I think that this new system pretty much balances everything out.

Truth moar.

~Okay, im man enough to admit when im wrong Q-Q Well played >.>
In response to SuperAntx (#23)
SuperAntx wrote:
SilkWizard wrote:
Worse, no real Anime or Fan Game developers even exist anymore. 99% of the games are rips, and 100% of them use the same gameplay style.

What worries me the most is how accurate that statement really is. It would be neat if someone started mapping the anime games like they would an evolutionary tree. Zeta would be the common ancestor with each revision going off into a new branch.


I'm sorry, but I feel obligated to step back into this topic and comment on this, even though it's somewhat off-topic. It seems to be something of a growing sentiment amongst parts of the Byond community given some of the posts i've seen recently.

This is not only a very elitist thing to claim, and is beside the point of why fan-games are apparently being taken off the hub, it's also wrong. Dead wrong.


There are many folks who are doing unique things with fan-games. I myself am one of them, in fact. One of the upcoming features for Phoenix is a fully realized, DBZ style time travel system that incorporates causality between three time periods, for frigs sakes.

Show me another game out there that incorporates balanced time travel, PVE content, and dynamic alterations of certain events and places in-game, according to scripted things players can do in the past/future, and i'll eat my hat.

I've seen other folks working with similarly crazy/cutting edge ideas too, so I know i'm not alone.


And to clarify, I don't mind people saying that the fan-game "genre" is bloated. As that's quite true.

Between the RSC extractors, source leakage fiasco's, and all the other crap that's happened over the years across various games, coupled with the fact that it is one of the most popular segments on Byond, yes, there's going to be alot of hack jobs.

However there's a fair number of hack jobs (Going off of your requirements.) amongst the original games too, if my experience from playing the original games on Byond over a half decade is any indication. They just don't get as much attention due to the lower number of folks who are interested in them.

But to imply a lack of creativity amongst those folks who are actually looking to design games is a bit disingenuous, to say the least of things.


I personally went with a fan-game, because I knew that was where the communities' interest was. I went where the business was, so to speak, and to date, I don't regret it.

Even so, I once tried working on an original game, despite the communities' preferences, and despite plenty of attempts at generating interest in it, it was a bust.

That's why I stick to fan-games, and the upcoming in-house development engine project (Which is actually an original creation.), that will let players design their own visually supported (As opposed to text RP sorts of games.), worlds/games, supported by stats and combat/non-combat systems, within the confines of the games I create.

Those are things that have generated interest in the majority of the folks I talk too on Byond. When I bring up the topic of a RPG, or RTS, I get a meh from most folks, because there are games out there that actual companies are making, that outstrip anything I could do. They've ultimately got more resources, and manpower, then I do, and it shows. There's no real way to compete with a blockbuster game, or any real "traditional" genre, that is flooded by commercial games.


If you're going to criticize the genre, do it for the right reasons. Don't do it because of misconceptions. There are plenty of folks out there who are genuinely interested in developing games in that genre, either because of a genuine interest in a setting, or because that's where most of the community is.
In response to Archonex (#28)
It's not an "elitist claim," it's a valid criticism of anime games based on solid evidence. The fact they're commonly referred to as a genre is proof of this. It's not because they're based on anime, it's because they all play exactly the same. There may be a few gimmicks thrown in here and there, but the core gameplay mechanics have always remained the same.

Try comparing similar games of any other actual genre. Decadence and Proelium II are both tactical shooters in a modern setting, players capture objectives while killing each other. Sounds similar on paper but while Proelium focuses on class-based combat with many non-weapon abilities Decadence has projectile accuracy and cover mechanics. They play nothing like each other. The first Proelium differs even more by being in a fantasy setting. Teridal and NEStalgia are both ORPG's yet they neither look or play like each other at all.

The only thing Castle, Space Station 13, Last Robot Standing, Casual Quest, Wargames, Ultimatum, Incursion and all those other featured games have in common is the fact none of them play like the other. They're completely unique experiences here on BYOND. You just don't get that sort of diversity with anime games. There has been almost no innovation since the original Zeta was created.
In response to SuperAntx (#29)
SuperAntx wrote:
It's not an "elitist claim," it's a valid criticism of anime games based on solid evidence. The fact they're commonly referred to as a genre is proof of this. It's not because they're based on anime, it's because they all play exactly the same. There may be a few gimmicks thrown in here and there, but the core gameplay mechanics have always remained the same.



RPG's are a genre, and have similar traits. FPS's are a genre, because they have similar traits. A good deal of original RPG's i've seen on here are basically the same thing in terms of back-end mechanics. They just vary the presentation.

A game can be part of a genre, and be worth playing. If that wasn't the case, Halo And Call of Duty never would have gotten the fan-base they did.

Halo is based off of Marathon, a much older game, aesthetically, and has weaponry from several other games. Call of Duty is the perfect storm of generic wartime shooters. And yet they are both mega-blockbusters that take the market by storm when they're released. This is partly due to polish, and partly due to the fact that that's what people enjoy playing.


You're attributing negative connotations to what's commonly accepted as fact, and is alright, in the wider world of gaming. If that's your opinion, that's fine. But I don't think that opinion somehow justifies belittling other folks works.

There are games in the anime genre that differentiate things and switch things up. One of the long term goals of the Phoenix project is to do just that, in fact.


I've sent this topic off-course for long enough, however. So i'll refrain from posting about this anymore, unless absolutely necessary. I most likely cannot change your mind, nor do I really wish too. You're entitled to your opinion, just as i'm entitled to mine.
In response to Archonex (#30)
RPG's are a genre, and have similar traits.

You mean like stat names? Because I dare say you're ignorant if you're going to say Final Fantasy 5, 10, and any Dragon Quest game play similarly. Or to a further extreme, to say Zelda plays like either (granted Zelda has been bad since the 3D shift, it's still an RPG).



If that wasn't the case, Halo And Call of Duty never would have gotten the fan-base they did.

Granted, this shouldn't even be an argument, considering we're talking games with potential. How CoD rehashes (not sequels/etc, there's no differences... FPSes, bah) sell so much I have no idea.



There are games in the anime genre that differentiate things and switch things up. One of the long term goals of the Phoenix project is to do just that, in fact.

Show one. No seriously, show one. There's been so many that've been "in planning to revolutionize BYOND anime" and never come out.
In response to Archonex (#3)
You're not seeing the difference between fan games and original games.

Fan games have an existing community. I know that there's a huge Stargate community outside of BYOND and if any of them were to come here interested in finding a Stargate game they'd type it in the search bar, avoiding the front page altogether.

Original games meanwhile have no existing community. It's up to the owner and a boatload of marketing to get things done. Anyone who wants to find you game must like it for its premise, not because they already played another game or watched a TV show.

As has been said this is going to change nothing for fan games. People will continue arriving to BYOND and those interested in fan games will avoid the front page and directly search for what they want to play. If they are interested in fan games in general they can use the tag system to browse through the list.

If on the other hand people are interested what others have come up with over the years that isn't taken from a popular TV show they'll be able to browse the original content and fine-tune what they want to play: an arcade game? Maybe an RPG?

I think the focus should be to get rid of your fan games. Anime games are a lost cause in this, by the way, but I think a lot of these fan games could still be reworked to something semi-original if given enough time.

But please stop with the complaints. The only reason you have less players than you ordinarily would is because the guy next to you made his own version of the same game. Rips and clones don't tend to happen in non-fan games because they're per definition unpredictable creations.
In response to Moonlight Memento (#31)
Moonlight Memento wrote:
RPG's are a genre, and have similar traits.

You mean like stat names? Because I dare say you're ignorant if you're going to say Final Fantasy 5, 10, and any Dragon Quest game play similarly. Or to a further extreme, to say Zelda plays like either (granted Zelda has been bad since the 3D shift, it's still an RPG).



If that wasn't the case, Halo And Call of Duty never would have gotten the fan-base they did.

Granted, this shouldn't even be an argument, considering we're talking games with potential. How CoD rehashes (not sequels/etc, there's no differences... FPSes, bah) sell so much I have no idea.



There are games in the anime genre that differentiate things and switch things up. One of the long term goals of the Phoenix project is to do just that, in fact.

Show one. No seriously, show one. There's been so many that've been "in planning to revolutionize BYOND anime" and never come out.

I don't think anything I post here would influence you, given your reply to the whole CoD/Halo thing. It seems like you're attributing some artistic quality to games, which are meant to be fun, over fine art. However, here goes.


How we go over the first game in development in the Phoenix development project? DBZ: Phoenix.

It is the one that's most familiar to folks, as it was originally late era Finale, until Bishamon and I were given the rights to code a spinoff game. We set about polishing the mechanics, and fixing every bug we could find. Then we moved onto new features.


To date we, have implemented:

Pseudo Newtonian gravity in space. Movement without controlled propulsion is inadvisable, as you will continue moving in a given direction until you bump into something solid. Given that space really is infinite (Another new feature.), the odds of you actually bumping into something are low. However, this can be mitigated by skills like fly, or using a space-worthy vehicle.

On a side-note, this leads to some interesting tricks in combat, in space. As some people will toggle off inertial dampeners on things like Pods (If they cannot survive outside one.) to try and do off more complicated tricks, like "sliding" through space to strafe an object. Which also goes into the whole "make combat more dynamic and tactical" philosophy i've got.

Refined basic gameplay features to a polished sheen (The "WoW" approach.). Several contributors to the project pretty much went into the guts of the game, and mathematically rebuilt the races to each be balanced with one-another. On my end, I spend a good deal of my time fine tuning features, implementing new back-end/front-end features with proper mathematical balancing (The ranking systems, for instance.), to ensure a quality gameplay experience.

Partially finished implementing RTS enabling features. Any player can currently create a robotic "Drone" (Similar to the ones in GT.), which can be commanded, has friend or foe identification, can be sold off to another player, and can guard or attack areas. They're essentially mecha mooks that can be built en-masse.

That particular system is being expanded in the near future, to factional control. Players can hire henchmen, take over regions (That will be explained later.), and generally be more of a "Frieza", then a "Goku", if they so choose.


Introduced and polished the basic features that let players design their own game. Some folks have pretty much re-created (Much to my own chagrin. I was hoping they'd take the opportunity to make a more original setting.) One Piece from the ground up several times now. They even got boats working using the administrative/developmental tools that were provided. It's been pointed out that that's the least they could do. Entirely new planets, PVE dungeons, and the works, can be made, if a player wants too, currently.

New planet states that I don't believe any game has implemented yet. If you're underground. You can dig out tiles as an alternative to traditional resource gathering techniques. You can also use those dug out tiles to construct your own haven, home, lair, base, whatever. There are also temperature states. If you're on a cold planet. It will be cold. And if you're not at DBZ levels of power, that can be dangerous if you don't take steps to ensure your safety. Weather is also reflected according to planetary or regional temperature.

On a side-note, weather can also play a factor in early game functionality. As certain types of extremely bad weather on certain planets (Heavy blizzards, for instance.), can white out the screen. Requiring alternate methods of finding a location, or enemy, if you're in a fight.

A large number of advanced back-end systems were introduced as well. Like a dynamic player panel that lets any administrator of appropriate rank control or fix any aspect of the game related to players, within a few seconds.

A new NPC AI and region system that spawns objects, weather, mobs, and controls the world via each region on each planet was recently added in. This system eliminates alot of the lag that standard mob assignment and usage systems on most anime games cause. A server built for hosting can run at 10 percent CPU capacity with well over 100 people online, rather then 100 percent capacity, like most Finale style games were before.

In addition to that, the regional AI system handles things like weather, mob hostility/placement, and other lovely stuff based on the region. Allowing for dynamic alterations of areas of the planet.

Which in turn means each region can be vastly different from one another in setting, safety, and design, rather then a unilateral "this Z level is dangerous/this one is not" sort of deal that most anime games go with when it comes to AI and environment safety.


I could go on with more features, but you can check this topic if you're interested in learning more.

http://dbzphoenix.proboards.com/ index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1400

I set up a rough developmental checklist of what's been done, and what hasn't, from some of my personal notes, some time ago. I've been meaning to finish the check-list, but time hasn't been on my side lately. And as it is, it gives a good outline on some of the stuff we intend to do.


Now, this time i'm really done posting here. I've got to focus on other issues. And I didn't make this topic to debate over whether or not anime games were "worthwhile", or not.
In response to Archonex (#33)
I personally don't see the big deal. The hub is merely there for convenience. It's not meant to do all your advertising for you. I my self have my own anime game that I should probably finish but, meh. In do time. In the mean time, ya'll need to quit your griping and just focus on making your game stand out and playable/polished. I can see where everyone can grow tired of seeing the same exact game renamed with different admins.
In response to Archonex (#33)
given your reply to the whole CoD/Halo thing. It seems like you're attributing some artistic quality to games, which are meant to be fun, over fine art. However, here goes.

What?



It is the one that's most familiar to folks, as it was originally late era Finale, until Bishamon and I were given the rights to code a spinoff game. We set about polishing the mechanics, and fixing every bug we could find. Then we moved onto new features.

And think, nothing is actually playable, you just said it's a rip, etc...



Now, this time i'm really done posting here. I've got to focus on other issues. And I didn't make this topic to debate over whether or not anime games were "worthwhile", or not.

Yeah, I'm sure you are.



I can see where everyone can grow tired of seeing the same exact game renamed with different admins.

You mean all anime games on BYOND?
In response to Moonlight Memento (#35)
That's not exactly fair. There are several good anime games. DMG,BLN,Naruto evolution, bleach evolution(game isnt out but the icons own) just to name a few. And I hope people aren't assuming anime games are the only ones with rips because byond RPG has a couple rips of its own.
In response to Mr.Professional (#36)
Mr.Professional wrote:
That's not exactly fair. There are several good anime games. DMG,BLN,Naruto evolution, bleach evolution(game isnt out but the icons own) just to name a few. And I hope people aren't assuming anime games are the only ones with rips because byond RPG has a couple rips of its own.

Just leave it alone. Given that last post of his, i'd be inclined to say that Moonlight Memento isn't interested in facts. He's either too full of himself to realize that not all of the fan-games are alike, or he's just trolling the thread (His blog does say the he spent some time trolling. :/).

I was hoping to conclude the discussion on a pleasant note, but he just took six lines from my entire post, misconstrued what I said in those lines, ignored the rest, and amped the condescending personality up to eleven. So yeah. Screw the not posting thing. My patience when it comes to caustic personalities only goes so far.


Can we get a lock on this topic? It's already fulfilled it's purpose. The damn thing is turning into flamebait now.
In response to Archonex (#37)
He's either too full of himself to realize that not all of the fan-games are alike, or he's just trolling the thread.

There has to be a difference! They don't all play the same! Some require you to press the B button instead of Z to grind!

That's you. Really rational, ah?



and amped the condescending personality up to eleven. So yeah. Screw the not posting thing. My patience when it comes to caustic personalities only goes so far.

Condescention only seems apparent to those who are proven wrong in an argument.



The damn thing is turning into flamebait now.

"I lost the argument. Get rid of this now."
In response to Moonlight Memento (#38)
I wasn't arguing with you in the first place. I've been distinctly trying to ignore your posts ever since you started posting stuff like this:

<There has to be a difference! They don't all play the same! Some require you to press the B button instead of Z to grind!

<Yeah, I'm sure you are.

I can see where everyone can grow tired of seeing the same exact game renamed with different admins.

<You mean all anime games on BYOND?



--- since you can't seem to go a single post without saying something blindingly idiotic and inflammatory in nature.

I was explaining the other side of things and hoping to have a good discussion on the issue. You didn't listen, and instead spent the last two or three posts taking things out of context, ignoring the majority of what I posted, and making some vaguely insulting and confrontational posts in between.

From where I stand, the discussion is over. Technically speaking, the topic did what it was supposed too once Tom posted, and everyone stated their opinions on the actual topic matter.


Hence why i'd prefer this topic get locked. I didn't make it to campaign my agenda, like some folks are.

If you want to crow about how you think all fan-games are the same thing, do it in your own damn topic. This topic was for discussing the show fan-games button on the hub. That question was answered some time ago.
Page: 1 2 3