What the hell?

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Feb 14 2014, 8:13 am
In response to Eternal_Memories
Eternal_Memories wrote:
There's no point on sharing your source with anybody, plus programming things like grass, dirt, or whatever you want to use as turf takes 1 second.

Not only that, but it doesn't actually need to be included in the source code unless it contains new behavior. You can create a new prototype in the map editor.
Feb 14 2014, 8:24 am
In response to Eternal_Memories
Eternal_Memories wrote:
A.T.H.K wrote:
Southend_boi wrote:

as a pixel artist i can say finding a coding partner is damn there impossible :(

That's a shame .. it's normally the other way around .. programmers can't find Pixel Artists...

+100000

It's very hard for programmers to find good pixel artists. I failed at all my attempts

Same, but with an extension. When I do find artists, they have too many "ideas". I want to program a game that I want to make, I'll take suggestions when the game I wanted is done (Like what I've done with Baron, just not got any art for it (Using placeholders)). That or they just aren't the best artists in the world and put themselves down to the point they quit.
Feb 14 2014, 8:34 am (Edited on Feb 14 2014, 11:59 am)
In response to Jittai
Jittai wrote:
Obviously when you trust your sound guy you have to give him your entire source.

Reformist wrote:
Some artists can do small things, like program turfs, objects, etc. Small things that are tedious for the programmer. In this case access to some of the code is required. Otherwise it becomes a chore to work against the schedules of the other people.

If you're going to be sarcastic, at least make sure you don't skew things to fit your petty argument. I never said you need to give them the ENTIRE source.

If your game uses some special format for making turfs, objects, etc., it would be handy if the person doing that work has access to it. Instead, let's not give anything to anyone and just make games alone forever. Because that's how it's done in game studios. /sarcasm
Feb 14 2014, 9:37 am
In response to Reformist
In game studios, every person has their own job, their own things they have to make. Their job is not to fiddle with every part of the game.

There are also people whose job is to piece together everything everyone else is making.

We cant afford nor is it really practical to have a setup like this on BYOND, so the general consensus is that the programmer manage the source and the artist has no real need for anything in the source.
Feb 14 2014, 10:44 am
The whole 'source code stealing' phenomena seems to be limited to the Anime Games community.

Eternia's entire repository has gone through at least... six or seven programmer's hands. Guess how many Eternia copies there are? How many 'FREE ETERNIA SOURCE CODE' links there are?

0.

Don't work with people you can't trust. You need to be able to trust them to actually do what you need them to, and not to go off and make a copy of your game or something.

Writing a New One only hires competent programmers, usually with several years of experience with and outside of DM. This formula seems to weed out all the untrustworthy programmers, so we've had no need to restrict access to our code.
Feb 14 2014, 10:47 am
I was one of those people. I think I had a good sized chunk atleast.
Feb 14 2014, 10:49 am
Same here, still in my dropbox. lol
Feb 14 2014, 10:53 am
@Jittai and Albro1: Your code is probably so outdated it wouldn't even matter if you released it! That's the power of progress!
Feb 14 2014, 12:02 pm (Edited on Feb 14 2014, 12:10 pm)
In response to Albro1
Albro1 wrote:
In game studios, every person has their own job, their own things they have to make. Their job is not to fiddle with every part of the game.

There are also people whose job is to piece together everything everyone else is making.

We cant afford nor is it really practical to have a setup like this on BYOND, so the general consensus is that the programmer manage the source and the artist has no real need for anything in the source.

Well these people are saying that you shouldn't give things to anyone else on the team. So I made a sarcastic remark meaning 3D modelers can't pass their models to the animators, because that's not good. And the art department can't give art to the programming department, because that's bad too. >.>

Plus, game studios doesn't just cover AAA studios. Plenty of Indie studios have people do everything. Most of the people on BYOND are Indies, so if your artist can program as well are you just going to tell them no? This is why many of the pixel artists don't want to work with the programmers on this site. The programmers hold all the cards.

My initial comment was from an artist perspective. I've had to take up programming because of the exact reactions of programmers displayed in this thread. You're an artist, do art and nothing else. Let me become disinterested by tediously adding hundreds of turfs and objects, while you waste your time on stuff that's never going to be implemented. Oh, the art's all done? Well just sit there and do nothing while I, again, become disinterested tediously programming in hundreds of things that you could easily do while I work on more important aspects, but no I won't let you. BYOND game design! :|
Feb 14 2014, 12:18 pm
If you're assigned as the project's artist, you are to do the art. So yes, I would tell them no.

Turfs and objects take me and probably most other programmers less than two seconds to put in.

I also agree with Howey.
Feb 14 2014, 12:20 pm (Edited on Feb 14 2014, 12:36 pm)
In response to FKI
FKI wrote:
If you're assigned as the project's artist, you are to do the art. So yes, I would tell them no.

Turfs and objects take me and probably most other programmers less than two seconds to put in.

I also agree with Howey.

So if you're a student you can ONLY be a student? If you work you can ONLY work? No breathing, no eating, no sleep; no matter how trivial the task you're not allowed because it's not your job.

If I gave you over 1000 turfs and objects you'd be done in 2 seconds, including adding special and unique features to a lot of them? No.

As for what Howey said, good luck finding artists who will do what YOU want without paying them. Honestly, I feel like 99% of the posts here are made by people who either only program, or were programmers before dabbling in art. I'd like to hear what other artists have to say about the attitudes displayed in this thread.

The only condition that I feel that I would ONLY be doing art is if I was being paid. Otherwise it's a waste of time. The programmer won't listen to your ideas, and won't let you add anything else. And programmers wonder why no artists want to work with them...

"I'm doing the programming, it's my game, so suck it up and make art." I'm sorry, but I'm sure a majority of artists would walk away.
Feb 14 2014, 12:21 pm
In response to Reformist
But how long it takes me doesn't and shouldn't concern you, as I, the programmer, am the one doing it. How does that affect you?
Feb 14 2014, 12:42 pm
In response to Reformist
I don't recall saying that the artist has no input.

I appreciate input from anyone on the team, and even those off of the team. Ideas are something universal, something that everyone can give without prior knowledge and it can contribute to the game.

No idea you have is ever going to be a good one. Once you realize that and fail faster, and get input from others and fine-tune your bad idea, it might become a good game.

So I'm pretty much saying I value artist's ideas and I don't think they shouldn't have any say in the game. Having a say in the game and programming are two different things.

For me, its mostly an organizational factor. I like to have my code organized a certain way, and so I don't like it very much when I have others add their own code, that isn't formatted like mine, to it. Even if I tell them how it should be, I would still have to look over their code to make sure they did it right.

To add on to the "special and unique features to a lot of them" thing, stuff like that usually ties in intimately with other system's I've made, which I would have to explain to you so that you could make them correctly. At this point, I might as well just find another programmer to work on the side with me so that you can focus on your job, the art.

I'm not saying artists shouldn't program parts of games. I'm just saying that in most cases, I, personally, do not care for it in my projects. Its all up to the discretion of the programmer.
Feb 14 2014, 12:45 pm
Art can be made without any type of code, nothing is stopping the artist from making art without the source, if the artist would like to code in the turfs they should be able to do it on their own project and give the dm file to the programmer...

This argument is just going around and around, in the end realistically only the "creator" should have access to the whole source no one else, if they decide to give it our for any reason they should expect the source to be leaked end of story.

Your argument of artists needing the source is just ridiculous but you're free to give out your source to them if you need just heed the words above... It will be leaked.
Feb 14 2014, 12:47 pm
Pretty much what Albro & ATHK said.

Edit: And what EmpirezTeam said.
Feb 14 2014, 12:48 pm
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee

With that said, unless you absolutely HAVE to, artists should not be programming and programmers should not be drawing. Practice your one kick until it's perfected, a jack of all trades is a master of none and it will show in the end result. Everyone has a role. If you're so obsessed with doing EVERYTHING, why even join up with someone else in the first place?
Feb 14 2014, 12:51 pm (Edited on Feb 14 2014, 12:56 pm)
I think the comment Howey made is actually insulting, and I write code only (though I wish I could make art).

When you have someone join you in a project, it should be open for ideas from any team member. These people aren't donating time to your project, they are becoming part of it themselves.

I get the general conscientious that the programmer manages the code...when it comes down to it, programmers are control freaks, myself included, but you also need to understand that there are people that can do more than one task. (The world isn't limited to a single skill tree)

Those are the ones that are truly amazing, and the comments in this post outline the mentality difference between thinking like a programmer and thinking like an engineer pretty well.
Feb 14 2014, 12:55 pm (Edited on Feb 14 2014, 1:14 pm)
In response to EmpirezTeam
EmpirezTeam wrote:
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee

With that said, unless you absolutely HAVE to, artists should not be programming and programmers should not be drawing. Practice your one kick until it's perfected, a jack of all trades is a master of none and it will show in the end result. Everyone has a role. If you're so obsessed with doing EVERYTHING, why even join up with someone else in the first place?

Why not join up with others? So what if you can program and make art by yourself? Join with another programmer and you basically have two programmers and an artist, or vice versa. But from what I've seen people who ONLY program have some sort of agenda to not let anyone else have any part in it.

I already have my art style nailed. I've been making art with traditional media since I was 4; I'm now 20. I've been doing pixel art for about 3-4 years. But since I was an artist first, by your logic I should just keep practicing something I'm already 100% satisfied that I've achieved a nice style in and never do anything else because I wouldn't be as good.

I mean look at Ter13. He programs, but he also does art. He's, in my opinion, better at programming, but his art is also good. So if he was doing art for you in a project you were both working on full time you'd just tell him no, you can't program anything, even though you know he can do it as well as you, if not better?

My situation is reversed. I'm better at pixel art, but I can program competently. So why would I not be allowed to do both if I can?

This is where my original point of distrust originates. "You can program, but how do I know you won't just make the art, help with some code, and then take off?"; or reversed. It's disgusting that this is the situation we're currently in. You can't build trust without first enabling trust to be tested, and from what I can see very few are willing to enable a trusting relationship to be built. The only examples that come to mind are Chris Gayle and Zane444, and the developers of Eternia.

Also, to the people claiming I want artists to have access to the entire source you're sorely mistaken, and I've already explained this in several other posts. I don't know what more I can say to help you understand.

Albro1 wrote:
I don't recall saying that the artist has no input.

That part was commenting on Howey's post.
Feb 14 2014, 12:58 pm
Because your point seems to be "if someone can draw and code, let them draw and code". My point is "if everyone focuses on what they are most good at, the end result will be better" and "if you can draw and code, and don't want someone else being able to tell you what you can and can't do... make the game yourself. You can draw and code, so nothing is preventing you from making your own game no one else can govern."
Feb 14 2014, 12:59 pm
...

So say I'm the creator, owner, leader, and everything in between, of some project, and I recruit someone who's both a programmer and an artist as an artist. Are you trying to say I'm required to or that I should let him program just because he can do it? That's not how it works.

There's miscommunication somewhere because I can't figure out where you guys are getting the idea that outside input is frowned upon.
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