ID:154291
 
(I may be guilty of putting this in the wrong forum, but since I'm currently the only moderator .. mwuahahaha!)

Overall, I'm quite pleased with the subscription system and the use of BYONDimes. Considering that we are in the early, "experimental phase" of this system and have only marketed by word of mouth, it is pretty impressive that dimes are moving at all! I credit the influx of great games that have incorporated this little element of e-commerce, whether it be by donation, subscription, or in-game transaction. I expect that as we get many more users over the next coming year, the economy will really pick up.

My current concern is that of "deflation" (or "inflation", depending on how you look at it). Basically, I'm referring to the perception of a BYONDime being worth a lot more than it actually costs. Some examples:

"But when the average going rates for subscriptions to most of these games are around that for a lifetime membership... That 2 bucks for ONE graphic (regardless of how many states it has...it's still only one graphic)...is quite over budget... "

"Subscribing to the other game, which had a 30 day trial, only supported 2 players, and had no online capabilities would cost you an entire $20.00... Subscribing to Echelon would cost you an entire $0.20 or $0.50, it comes with online capabilities and supports up to four players... Yet, absolutely no one bothers to subscribe to my game!"

Actually this kind of thing is very true of the Internet in general. Since people are used to getting everything for free, they attain a skewed perception of the actual costs involved in creating the products. I remember reading that the average webpage on Geocities cost around $6-$8 a month to support, but most of the members wouldn't consider paying a fraction of that cost. Part of this is that the product simply isn't worth the money (not everyone cares enough about a webpage to pay for it), but I think a larger factor is the fact that the "freebie" perception has been ingrained into our minds. After all, people will glady dole out $5 (50 BD!) for a fast-food meal, almost exclusively because that's what it costs.

It is really way to early in the system to make an accurate judgement on how this will affect us, the BYOND community, but we'd like to at least nudge things in the right direction. My worry is that people will look at a game that charges, say, 20 BD, and think that it is way too expensive, because, relatively speaking, it is. Considering that each of these games takes countless hours (days, weeks, months!) of labor to produce, it would be depressing if the designer could only make a few dollars off his or her efforts simply because of the "exchange rate perception". Many coders aren't doing this for a profit, but they should at least have the option. If a game only charges a few dimes for a lifetime subscription, it will probably take a few thousand subscribers to be seriously taken as a source of additional income for the designer. If (nay, once!) we get immensely popular, I think this should be possible, but it will still involve some marketing effort on the part of the author. On the other hand, if the subscription costs go up (say, $5 a pop), then significantly less players are needed to reach that goal. The question is whether we can, or should, shift things in that direction.

In hindsight, I think that the use of "dimes" as the base unit of currency may have been a mistake. The idea was to make it sound like an insignficant, almost throw-away amount, not have the opposite effect! If we had gone with the "BYOND Buck" for instance, then $5 (5BB) might not seem like such a big deal. Of course, it is not too late for changes. We could enforce a minimum transaction amount, up the minimum deposit, and so forth. On the other hand, I almost hate to banish the "tip" system ("Hey, give me a dime for my efforts!"), used in such games as Gughunter's SpaceTug. Clearly this will require a bit of thought.

Currently, a large percentage of BYONDime deposits come via $5 checks, which just so happens to be the minimum deposit amount right now. This leads me to believe that we could increase it without much change, which would allow designers to effectively double their profits. Obviously at some point the balance has to switch over-- I doubt that making 1BD == $100 US would work too well! Who knows, it may be that we have the perfect figure right now, and that the limiting factor is simply the rather small quantity of active participants at the moment. That will undoubtedly change, I have confidence in that.

All that said, I think that for now I'd simply like to encourage people to do the translation for themselves when using the commerce system. If you are having fun playing a game, and the designer asks for 20 BD to support his or her efforts, consider for the moment that this really is a pretty small amount of money, more symbolic than anything, considering that no one is making a killing just yet!
Tom wrote:
In hindsight, I think that the use of "dimes" as the base unit of currency may have been a mistake. The idea was to make it sound like an insignficant, almost throw-away amount, not have the opposite effect! If we had gone with the "BYOND Buck" for instance, then $5 (5BB) might not seem like such a big deal.

I think there may be some truth to this, much as I like the name "BYONDimes". It's hard to spend 20 or 40 of anything, because at core I think that feels like spending $20 or $40.

I bet there would be a lot less resistance to spending $2 BYONDBucks than to 20 BYONDimes.

It may be worth making the change, though I have no idea what all is involved in that.

It's hard to know what to charge. There are a lot of games on the web available for free, though you'll find most multi-player games do charge.

I like the idea of people being able to play games without having to pay for everything, but I also like the idea of getting a return on a good game. If the makers of EverQuest can make money, why not us?

Birdland is currently set for a $2 subscription. Is that too much to get any players? I dunno...but if not $2, how much?

The BYONDscape subscription makes me feel better about things. Knowing that someone can spend $1/month and get access to lots of games (when more games do that) seems attractive.

As for amount of time put into things...we spent 8 months on DragonSnot. We already have 6+ months into Living & Dead. Even a very simple game like Birdland has taken over a month, as we refine it and try to get every little detail right. All told, we've spent hundreds of dollars on tools to create this stuff (some of us actually pay for our software). So whatever is right or wrong about charging for games, it's definitely not free for us to make them!
In response to Deadron
Deadron has a point, when you go to spend 10 BYONDimes even though it's only one dollar you feel like it's much more, and when you earn every dime you get (like me) it feels like even more, I wouldn't mind a BYONDBuck (even though the most dimes I've ever had was 13), but keep the dime too, and make a system 10 dimes = one buck, but you can also seperate the bucks back into dimes for smaller things.
In response to Deadron
I think there may be some truth to this, much as I like the name "BYONDimes". It's hard to spend 20 or 40 of anything, because at core I think that feels like spending $20 or $40.

That might be more true than you think! While people were still downloading, playing and subscribing to Echelon (which they have all ceased doing, so I get no donut), I had someone complain because they didn't know how to exchange for BYOND Dimes and wanted to know if they could just "send me the 5 bucks" instead. I'm not sure though if they meant that as 5 bucks because of the extra hassle, or they were thinking that 5BD's equals $5.

If people are going to think like that, maybe converting to BYOND Bucks wouldn't be such a bad idea. Maybe you could still leave in BYOND Dimes as backup, too.
In response to Awakening
Awakening wrote:
I'm not sure though if they meant that as 5 bucks because of the extra hassle, or they were thinking that 5BD's equals $5.

Ack, that's horrible! But it is encouraging that someone would be willing to spend the $5. Actually, that makes sense, since, as you said, a lot of shareware games that aren't half as good charge $15-$20.

If people are going to think like that, maybe converting to BYOND Bucks wouldn't be such a bad idea. Maybe you could still leave in BYOND Dimes as backup, too.

Yes, I'm starting to think that making the BB the "default" unit of currency would be the way to go. Or we could make BD --> BYONDollar, but then some people here would be rich!

You'll get your donut soon, Awakening. Keep your spirits up!
In response to Tom
I earned $1.50 from Snow Boarder, I wasted that all within a week, 10 dimes to Tanks, and then I got 10 from BYONDscape, I spent some on MLAAS, and a few went to friends, I currently have 3 dimes.
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Ack, that's horrible! But it is encouraging that someone would be willing to spend the $5. Actually, that makes sense, since, as you said, a lot of shareware games that aren't half as good charge $15-$20.


Did you ever play Realmz? I believe I spent $20 on it at the time, for 4 scenarios which were very short, rather badly made graphics and extremely bad sound(Single player RPG with a part of 5, freestyle where you roamed and did miniquests, levelled, got spells, etc.). BYOND could do this a lot better, its just too bad that at the moment people wouldnt even consider spending $10 on something like that.

Alathon
In response to Tom
Yes, I'm starting to think that making the BB the "default" unit of currency would be the way to go. Or we could make BD --> BYONDollar, but then some people here would be rich!

How about: 1 BYOuND = 10 BYONDimes (Dannings) = 100 Tompence...


Anyway, instead of tinkering with an infrastructure that seems to work solidly, maybe it would be best simply to institute a convention that on the site, BYONDimes will always be accompanied by their value in BYONDcents or BYONDbucks, e.g.:

Subscribe to BYONDscape! One month's subscription is only one BYONDime (ten BYONDcents).

Buy a BYOND coffee mug! Only six BYONDbucks (60 BYONDimes).

This convention could be recommended to game authors as well, and enforced in the transaction verification popup box and other official venues.
In response to Gughunter
All I have to say about this, is maby everyone should start bumping up the prices. If everyone started charging 30 BYONDimes instead of 3 for subscriptions, then no one will ignore a game that actuially trys to earn back some of the money that was spent making it. I'm not expert, but isn't that what they do in the 'real' world? Think about CDs, I can buy a pack of 50 for $20(USD), which comes out to about 2.5 per CD. But I end up paying $50 for my XBox games. Why? Because of the ammount of money and time that goes into the game by the designers. But if all the other XBox games costed $5, I wouldn't buy the $50 unless it was ungodly cool. But since they all cost $50, theres really no complaints... Now I'm not saying everyone charge 300 byondimes to play their games, but I am suggest everyone bump it up a decimal, or at least double...
In response to Dreq
This is exactly what I plan to do in the future of TextMUD. It currently costs 50 cents a month or 1 dollar for a lifetime. (I get complaints that my prices are too steep!) When TextMUD 2.5 comes out, I plan to double both of those prices. For release 3.0, lifetime will be taken out of operation and payments will be either 1-month or 5-month based -- $5.00 a month or $20.00 for five months. I strongly beleive that, as TextMUD and BYOND continue to grow, those prices will seem less and less steep. That's not even to mention the enormous amounts of improvements planned for TextMUD's next two releases.

-Lord of Water
In response to Lord of Water
This is exactly what I plan to do in the future of TextMUD. It currently costs 50 cents a month or 1 dollar for a lifetime.

Is TextMUD on the hub? I tried a search but didn't find it.
In response to Gughunter
It's hub name is currently "TextMUD 2.0", so try that in your search. Failing the former method, follow this link.

-Lord of Water
I think the best solution would be to keep the BYONDimes in place, but give us the option of dealing BYOND Bucks... make a donation proc that uses the larger denomination, have subscription prices be phraseable in Dimes or Bucks... that way, we can make a measly three dollars seem like a measly three dollars, but we can still do "Player, can you spare a dime?" messages.

No massive restructuring of infrastructure, no new restrictions on the nascent economy... just a change of packaging.
In response to Lord of Water
The only problem I'd see with that, since in BYOND, as of now, players and builders are all meshed into the same lump, it's possible that if you're charging too much for whatever you're offering, and if it's conseivable to the player that they could make their own, there's nothing stopping them from ignoring your game, making their own, and giving it away for free thus effectively screwing you :oP

So unless your game contains things that would be considered quite difficult to do by the users, there's not really much reason for them to pay large amounts of money.

For example, if Nadrew decided to charge $2 for the game he spent 15 minutes making, other people will look at it and think, "Forget this, I can make my own!" Basically, if you're going to charge heavy prices, you'd better have a heavy program behind it, otherwise people won't see the need to pay for what you've done.

I can see games like Dragonsnot doing this, since Deadron claims they've got 8 months of work behind it, and it's advanced enough that the everyday BYOND programmer wouldn't be able to make their own version. It's a bit like the DBZ problem. Why by pushed around by the admins in this guy's dbz game when I can just make my own?
In response to Foomer
That is a very valid argument and Tanks is a classic example. A couple of weeks ago some guy wanted Adv tech and would make Dbz Tech and all this other stuff free. Then i asked him why doesnt he make his own game with what he wanted in it; he replied

"The Tanks code is too long and compicated to make a game about"

after reading this i logged out as i could not stop laughing.
In response to Gojira
That being the case, maybe Shadowdarke should raise his prices!
In response to Gughunter
Subscribe to BYONDscape! One month's subscription is only one BYONDime (ten BYONDcents).

Note that a one-month BYONDscape subscription is actually ten BYONDimes (one BYONDbuck)... guess that's a pretty good example of the trickiness of BYONDimes, or just my own inattentiveness.
In response to Lesbian Assassin
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
I think the best solution would be to keep the BYONDimes in place, but give us the option of dealing BYOND Bucks...

That's my inclination too. There seem to be two mindsets about the word "dime". It can sound like an insignificant amount, but it can also sound like a lot. We should just leave it up to the programmer to decide which is more appropriate.

Since there have been subscription bugs (just fixed the last one today!) I must say that I am glad the amounts of money involved have been small up to this point. It's been great for testing the system out.

--Dan
In response to Dan
I think Tanks is the game that brings in the most dimes :)

GOOD JOB SHADOW!!

stealth2k
In response to Stealth 2k
Last I checked, MLAAS held the record.
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