Have you ever played a mud you liked and gone through a huge amount of effort to, say for this example, slay a mighty golden dragon and skin it, then make yourself a nice golden dragon skin cloak. After that, prepared to show everyone your beautiful golden dragon skin cloak, you march back to the point of meetings (wherever people hang out in that mud) and show everyone your beautiful achievement. Then some other guy who's been around longer than you says in response "Oh, I've got a dozen of those."
That kind of knocks all the fun out of earning something like that, doesn't it? When every other player in the game has got so many great or legendary things that anything you earn might as well be another toothpick for all they care.
Has anyone thought of any good ways to avoid this plague?
ID:154373
 Nov 15 2001, 10:11 am
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An obvious solution: Drop the static item base in favor of a more dynamic system. In most of the standard MUD bases I've looked into, there's not an awful lot of wiggle room for items--room number XXXX will have two of monster number YYYY which are each carrying a copy of item number ZZZZ. Or, for a really advanced system, room number XXXX will have two of monster number YYYY which each have a certain percent chance of loading a copy of item number ZZZZ.
Actually, that's a rather cynical view; from what I've seen it's not unusual in MUDs and other online RPGs to make it so items not only have a randomized percent chance of loading, but also have some variation in their stats. This is a start, and it can be a pretty good start (not to mention very easy to implement), but why stop there? What if entirely new items were randomly generated based on a number of criteria fed in during the design process (or else also randomly generated elsewhere, but that's starting to get into a few too many random layers for your standard MUD). Two players could go through the exact same quest sequence and each recieve two vastly different magic swords; over thousands of quests, some similar items would crop up, but each one would be almost guaranteed to be unique. You could expand on this even further by making it possible for players to tack on their own enchantments and modifications. I'm not talking about some system where players mindlessly go through a rote series of predictable actions to pump up the stats on their equipment--these should be difficult, rare, and even risky chances, unless you're deliberately designing your world to have a very high power level right from the start (thus skipping the long, bumpy road of power inflation and going straight to its end). Instead of having standard sets of power-player equipment, you'd end up with your experienced players decked out in highly unique sets of equipment, each with its own numerous intricate differences. Or, for a somewhat simpler to implement and regulate system, you could simply make it so that rather than being restricted to loading objects according to certain set-in-stone blueprints, objects are randomly picked from lists of appropriate blueprints--thus, while the city guard might be decked out in mostly uniform gear, you could have the stuff of the really major quests randomly pick from a huge list of various premade magical artifacts. Since many of these could be made accessible only through the really major quests, you can be reasonably assured that anyone who performs one of these great feats will get something pretty special, with a lot simpler system than above. | |
One of the ways I'm avoiding it in my RPG is to limit the number of powerful magical items that can be won in a given amount of time. I haven't worked out the number or amount of time (this will have to be based on the number of players the game has). This means that no matter what the players do, the total number of cool items will be one that is certain (and relatively low).
Couple that with some sort of magical item attrition and they'll stay pretty rare. I'm a bit unsure in this area.. currently enchantments can destroy items, so making items more powerful is risky. I'm also considering making it so NPCs will offer at least decent prices for this items, as a drain to keep them out of the players' hands. -AbyssDragon | |
I won't try to pretend that I really know much about what you're talking about... At least not from personal experience...as I've never really played any of this type of game...
But can't you just put a limit to the number of legendary items in the game from the start? Like if you can only get a Golden Dragon Skin cloak by killing a Golden Dragon... Just put only one Golden Dragon into the game... And once the first person gets to him and kills him...then the rest will just have to look for another quest... And over time...as the original batch of items is gathered up from the wilderness...you just go in and put some more things into the game... And another round of "first-come first-serve" questing can begin... And perhaps add in some variation in what the items that can be gathered can do... Like if you kill a Dragon for his skin... That skin doesn't have to be made into a cloak... It can be made into a shield or upholstery for your home...lol And perhaps add in some things that allow certain items to be combined into completely new and unique items... Like a Dragon skin and the feathers of a phoenix can be combined into a flying suit... Or whatever... Basically what it boils down to is make the world dynamic...ever-changing and altered by the actions of the players... Not a certain pre-set world that all new players are handed and given the same conditions that everyone else got when they started... So not every player will get their own golden Dragon to kill if someone before them already did so... Like I said, though... I'm not really sure how the whole thing works...so my advice may be impossible to carry out...lol But it seems to me to be the best way... | |
Well, the point isn't totally that everyone will end up getting the same items and eventually everyone will have one and they won't mean anything anymore. The point was that eventually, everyone has a ton of "neat" things, and when some newbie comes in to show the oldbies his neat thing, they don't care because they already have a bunch of their own, and the newbie gets left with shallow and empty "Congradulations." responces.
I'm looking for a way to avoid having each and every player who has been around for a decent amount of time end up wearing nothing but fantastic, legendary gear that no newbie could ever dream to compare with. Nothing is an achievement when someone else has already done something way better. You look at science today, scientists are always discovering new technologies that surpass the old, greater things that no one has ever done before. But, trying something like that in most MUDs will leave you with a huge amount of legendary items, each more powerful or valuable than the last, until you get to the strongest item you can get then you hit the roof and you're done, unless the admins decide to keep adding better and better ones... I want to find a good way to avoid having a bunch of oldbie players hanging out in a tavern wearing things like this:
Head: Elessar, the Phoenix Feathered Helm of PowerEverything they have tends to be some kind of super powerful item that renders them godlike. I don't want that, I want them to stay down with the mortal crowd, but still gain something for their efforts. | |
I see...
Hmmm... Then how about you set something up so that all items have an "upkeep" (I'm a Magic player, speaking of the term...lol) If they don't keep their stuff in good shape...it deteriorates into uselessness... And the better the item...the more upkeep it requires... Sooner or later...people will get tired of constantly having to shine their "Swords of Balance and Chaos" with the "Brasso of the Gods" (lol) that they can only get through collecting the blood of some immensely dangerous beast and taking it to an apothecary's to be turned (at least over a night's time, no less...and costing a bagful of gold) into said polishing compound...lol And they will slowly start to slough their annoyingly needy items in favor of more "mortal" ones with lower upkeep... Perhaps choosing their favorite of the bunch to focus their efforts on keeping nice... And for those that want to be greedy and keep everything... Then they'll have at least earned that right because they have so much work to do to keep it all in good shape...lol (I think someone already mentioned this system... I believe I read the word "attrition" somewhere in this thread...) Or perhaps you could have a random Armageddon type event that sweeps through the land e very so often...stripping everyone of their prized posessions and effectively resetting the world...lol (Likely to piss everyone off, though... Not such a good idea...lol) | |
Maybe just avoiding any perminant "legendary" weapons in the first place would be best, then players can't go on collecting sprees, they just get short-term rewards that for one reason or another vanished a while later.
However you make that work is up to you... | |
GateGuardian wrote:
Nothing is an achievement when someone else has already done something way better. I disagree... If I manage to get my hands on an urglaes sword, the sword is awesome, using it is great fun, and whatever my challenge was I was successful, which feels good. The fact that person X has 10 urglaes swords doesn't take anything away from how much fun mine is to use. And most people I know feel like that. Of course, no matter how much you tell people it takes years to gather a great inventory and you shouldn't value your experiences by comparing them to the Joneses', some people will be jealous and unhappy. But as long as there's parity in the world there'll always be some jealous and unhappy people. I'm looking for a way to avoid having each and every player who has been around for a decent amount of time end up wearing nothing but fantastic, legendary gear that no newbie could ever dream to compare with. Whether or not I agree with your statement above, this is certainly a noble goal. You can give each item a "specialness" variable, and make it so any player can only have items adding up to a specialness of 10 at any time. So you could have one super ring of room, or ten sort of nice rings of footwarming. The trouble is I'm not sure if there's a real good in-character way to enforce that. Hmmm. When someone goes to pick something up that would take them over their "specialness" level, they could sense that "the item you are trying to get is repelled by the things you are wearing as their magics clash." Z | |
Zilal wrote:
The trouble is I'm not sure if there's a real good in-character way to enforce that. Hmmm. When someone goes to pick something up that would take them over their "specialness" level, they could sense that "the item you are trying to get is repelled by the things you are wearing as their magics clash." Something similar has been done in godwars MUDs, to prevent too many 'artifact's from being worn. You could wear one, and any other artifact you even tried to pick up was immediately dropped. Of course they werent worth much, as it was a PK mud and you could die at the snap of a finger and get looted.. An In-Character way.... You wear the Mask of many Faces Your body is filled with raw power You try to wear the Ring of Void Mastery Your body cannot handle the power Or something...im sure theres a good way to do it, Im just not very imaginative :P Alathon | |
I like Alathon's idea. :)
Another way would be to insure that every powerful item has drawbacks. The artifacts in D&D all have negative properties because mortals can not properly harness the extreme powers. No one would want 10 Golden Dragon Skin Cloaks if merely possessing the item negatively influenced all reactions from good NPCs. If it further meant that ever few days a group of Golden Dragons (one dragon per cloak) came rampaging after the owner in a guerilla assault, fleeing at top speed when they reach half health to prevent the owner from managing to slay one, it would be downright suicidal. Hanging on to even one of them would be a feat worth bragging about. For stats, make sure that there are negative penalties that add up closely to the benifits. If your character has a stat so low that the penalty reduces the stat below the minimum value, they are enfeebled and unable to take any action until they remove the item or balance it with another. | |
Shadowdarke wrote:
For stats, make sure that there are negative penalties that add up closely to the benifits. If your character has a stat so low that the penalty reduces the stat below the minimum value, they are enfeebled and unable to take any action until they remove the item or balance it with another. That reminds me of Everquest. You see, in that game everyone is greedy as [censored for the public], and in the servers dedicated to PK the best strategy is as follows: Engage them, by sneaking up behind them and giving them 10,000 copper(=1000silver=100gp=10pp=greedy people), thus weighing them up so much they are unable to move. Then, if they are as greedy as most people are they will refuse to drop it. This works best against a melee character, but if it is a spellcaster just be glad they cant move around and maneuver :P Alathon | |
Shadowdarke wrote:
No one would want 10 Golden Dragon Skin Cloaks if merely possessing the item negatively influenced all reactions from good NPCs. If it further meant that ever few days a group of Golden Dragons (one dragon per cloak) came rampaging after the owner in a guerilla assault, fleeing at top speed when they reach half health to prevent the owner from managing to slay one, it would be downright suicidal. Hanging on to even one of them would be a feat worth bragging about. This is another thing. If you are wandering around, with a Golden Cloak of the Messiah, Boots of the Druidic Master, and YeshKoveks Sword of Lightning Fury isnt someone going to notice? I mean, how unlikely is it in any environment from the theme and time those kinds of MUDs are set in, no ones going to try to assassinate you? What about thieves, pickpockets, even royal assassinations for personal gain. Person A walks into Tavern: Hah! I just got the Shimmering Veil of Immortality! hahaha *Oomph!* Person A was stabbed in the back by a rogue, Veil of Immortality stolen and gone. Nice idea :) Alathon | |
I want to find a good way to avoid having a bunch of oldbie players hanging out in a tavern wearing things like this:
Head: Elessar, the Phoenix Feathered Helm of PowerWell, one small change that would really help in a couple ways is simply making it so that all these super-powerful magical objects are not readily identifiable. What, do these MUDs send all their adventurers to an adventurer-school where they learn the name and appearance of every single powerful magical object that used to, does, or will later exist? Suppose that most magical objects looked like perfectly normal objects--possibly rich or decorated objects, but still with nothing to distinguish them from nonmagical rich or decorated objects. Suppose, moreover, that identifying the magical properties of an object was a sketchy, difficult proposition. Between these, you accomplish two things: 1. You don't have to worry about people with descriptions like the one you gave--someone might be wearing "Elessar, the Phoenix-Feathered Helm of Power", but to anyone who hasn't researched the artifact's history extensively, they're just wearing some ugly helm covered with garish feathers. And, of course, there would also be plenty of perfectly normal ugly helms covered with garish feathers. 2. It becomes a lot harder to collect massive hoards of magical objects if it's tough to tell them apart from regular objects--not only might you miss out on an artifact if you don't bother to rigorously ID and test it, but you might also mis-identify something and not find out about a rather significant drawback attached to the item, or else simply mistake an object with few or no magical properties for a rare and legendary artifact (or vice versa). | |
Leftley wrote:
What, do these MUDs send all their adventurers to an adventurer-school where they learn the name and appearance of every single powerful magical object that used to, does, or will later exist? Suppose that most magical objects looked like perfectly normal objects--possibly rich or decorated objects, but still with nothing to distinguish them from nonmagical rich or decorated objects. Suppose, moreover, that identifying the magical properties of an object was a sketchy, difficult proposition. If the MUD that y'all discussing is a D&D based MUD your argument is made useless because of a little level one spell I like to call "Identify". If the game isn't a D&D based game then I am a ignorant fool and ye should listen to me not. | |
I agree with SSGX on only having one "big mystical magical" item in the game. It isn't like there would be ten Crowns of King (I forgot the guy's name, you know, the guy in Marago [In Maeva]) It just doens't make since to have 20 urglaes(?) swords in a game, now havin' 30 Two-Handed Sword +1s is different because it is something that any good Dwarven metalsmith could make. I don't even know what I am saying anymore becsaue I am ramlin'. Anyways I think powerful magic weapons should be limited accroding to the storyline of the game, there I said it, I am leaving. Bye.
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DasFalke wrote:
Leftley wrote: Draw your own conclusions from this. | |
DasFalke, you're thinking way too much along the lines of AD&D. No one has ever mentioned using it here, and this is a general discussion that doesn't revolve around a particular play type.
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Earth Dawn was at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to IDing items. In order to use a legendary item you had to research the item and find key bits of information about you could empower it. Then you would weave your magical pattern to the pattern of the item. There were different levels to each item and the information for each level was increasingly obscure.
Also in Earth Dawn, you could weave your pattern to any item to imbue it with extra powers. However binding a plain longsword to you wouldn't produce as powerful an item as one that has been used by generations of warriors to combat the Horrors That Must Not Be. Your plain longsword would only become legendary if you became a legend yourself. I loved the magic background in Earth Dawn. Too bad the testing system was so cumbersome. | |
Shadowdarke wrote:
Earth Dawn was at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to IDing items. In order to use a legendary item you had to research the item and find key bits of information about you could empower it. Then you would weave your magical pattern to the pattern of the item. There were different levels to each item and the information for each level was increasingly obscure. Now that's what I'm talking about! Well, more or less. The research system sounds like a few ideas I've been toying around with for a pretty long time here, in various forms, although the bit-by-bit activation of the powers sounds interesting. I'd like to see something more along the lines of powers which would be even more difficult to identify, and generally not amazingly visible (at least not all of them), which would lend themselves to all sorts of niftiness--bluffing your opponent into thinking that your perfectly ordinary longsword is in fact a mythical sword of the gods, adventuring for months with a minor magic ring only to find that it has all sorts of side effects you never knew about... or conversely, suddenly finding out that the incredibly powerful artifact which has barely kept you alive for the past year and a half of playing is in fact not magical at all! | |
Others have attempted to do it through long quests, and slaying, and travelling, and puzzles. But this doesnt hold either, the first guy without sense to complete it will put it on a spoiler site, and everyone will do it.
I honestly dont have a solution to something of the sort, except just not making it accessible to players without immortal interferance (Quests and what not, actual turnpoints in the MUDs story, You seiged the castle and slayed the last remaining Oggukum, and so are the sole owner of a Robe of Oggokum Skin). This tends to favor those people who are on at the time more though, and people will complain that they are never on when you are so they cant get the item.
Just my 2c
Alathon