You forget the part where most people will spend as much time as they did making a game on BYOND merely making the underlying engine in something like JavaScript.
Keep in mind that you only need to use JS if you want to design your own controls or have more client-side control. Our hope is that people will start contributing controls so that eventually there is a larger repository of UI elements. We'll see!
In response to Doohl
Doohl wrote:
You forget the part where most people will spend as much time as they did making a game on BYOND merely making the underlying engine in something like JavaScript.

I remember the time I actually attempted at making my own Engine years ago. I stopped at OpenGL. I didn't know any better. I'll never take that route again..

Tom wrote:
We'll see!

I'll be contributing heavily this summer. Since at that point in time I won't be bombarded with work every week like I currently am. I am excite. So excite. So, yes. We'll see.
Well, there are a number of alternative javascript game engines these days, and I think that developers should consider their options to find the best tool for what they want. BYOND's biggest advantage is probably the ability to prototype and rapidly develop multiplayer, since in those other languages you'll generally have to involve yourself in the nuances of client vs server (which isn't always bad, since it gives a degree of control that BYOND doesn't offer).

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with playing with different engines and just having fun with them. Not everything has to be so serious!
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
involve yourself in the nuances of client vs server (which isn't always bad, since it gives a degree of control that BYOND doesn't offer).

I cry every time I am reminded of the 3 days of logic planning I went through when developing a networking script based on user distance that calculates their distances from other users and stops sending messages between users who are in a certain region or just plain too far.

What made this so hard was the confusing nature of Unity's networking system. And not to mention running in to walls and trying to also enter the MOST efficient route (meaning I couldn't be lazy and just give every player a trigger collider and say, "OnTriggerEnter(){ start sending for move sync }").

What makes me cry even more is the fact that Unity is now coming out with a new Networking system that deprecates my current system's ENTIRE LOGIC!!! Yes, all of it. Because it used network ids and rpc and network channels. That in which will no longer be used. And... now the networking will be much more simplistic.

So, yeah. I'm a bit upset I wasted my sweat and soul on something. But, I learned something. I play with a few other engines out there as well. I definitely think that BYOND is my go to place for making games quick though. Everything is so quick and easy here. :)

Edit: My logic was planned on printer paper 3AM in the morning on a Saturday night last summer while in the development of a 3D game. Something I literally never do. I always dive in head first into my projects and plan in my head. The only other time I've ever planned on paper in advance was for a 2D finance game for a contest that I started on months late. For the sake of utilizing time, planning was necessary to avoid second-guesses on efficiency (which consumes time).
How many people are learning DM?

Well lets see..

I had to search for BYOND - it didn't search for me. I (literally) was typing in phrases like "Game Creation Software" trying to find something "I" could use to create something and BYOND eventually popped up. even though I ended up doing more playing of games than creating of games for the first couple of years, I still had to search for the engine to find it.

I think most of the newcomers arrive based on a random google search or word of mouth. It is a very ineffective way to attract users - especially since most BYOND users feel somewhat ashamed of it. I also think a majority of BYOND's developers were players at some point.

If I had to guess -

about 50 newbies at any given time.
I would guess there are about 50 more who know some DM but are still learning the finer details
As well as a good couple hundred people who know the language to a fair degree.

I don't think those numbers are accurate - but it's a guess. It's hard to put a figure on something like this because the engine is freely available to be downloaded. And your not required to tell anyone what your doing with it. Your not required to use your knowledge either or report/register your projects.

I know for a fact there are at least 30+ projects in development at any time but only a small fraction of those developers decide to publish any of it. I have logged onto nameless prototypes many times - no hub, no public attention or mentions. I myself rarely publish anything and I have started over 100+ projects in the past..I am sure other developers have similar habits..

Well that's about the best I can do in trying to answer/contribute to this question.
GatewayRa wrote:
Confusion is no reason to limit yourself. You don't quit when you're confused. You fight it until you understand. Hopping to the next most convenient thing will reduce your rate of progression.

Don't converse with me.
Don't quote me.
Don't mention me.

I wasn't confused. I was frustrated that I had to write so many lines of code to make a mere cube. I was also frustrated when I had to do the EXACT same thing to render planes in Unity3D for a voxel terrain. Messing with individual vertices is annoying in my opinion. That's all I have to say.
You're not wrong that I'm not too familiar working with lower-level rendering systems.

I also seen some of the code you posted on the forums, one in particular about how you handled layers. How you handled layers suggested to me you're either uninformed of how low-level graphic api's would handle it and in the communication to the graphics card, or you just plain old didn't think about it.

You're talking about my "OrientLayer" proc that I posted on a bug report? Kind of harsh to judge something posted on a bug report. It's a hack that I've put a lot of time into thinking about that I originally came up with when talking to Ter13 a year or two back. If you're suggesting there's a better way to do it, I am all ears and then some.
DreamSeeker's rendering engine is fixed function, GR. It barely takes advantage of hardware acceleration.
In response to Xirre
Xirre wrote:
Dale. I hate you for using curly brackets. That is one of DMs cool features. The lack of being forced to include curly brackets every time. Don't be that guy. Don't... Lol.

Ter13 wrote:
Curly braces can be useful some of the time. Mostly when condensing code for use in preprocessor macros, but yeah. I prefer to leave them out of my code.

I use them because I constantly switch between multiple programming languages and I would hate to not use my curly braces when they're actually needed.

Plus, it allows me to easily downsize my code to a single line if I wanted too :)


In response to Xirre
Also, I normally program in a notepad for things like PHP and such, so those braces don't automatically appear :p force of habit now
In response to Ssj4justdale
Ssj4justdale wrote:
Also, I normally program in a notepad for things like PHP and such, so those braces don't automatically appear :p force of habit now

Understandable. When I first started programming in C# and PHP I almost always came back to DM trying to add a semicolon. After a while I got used to the constant transition and now I can go between the two with ease. Are you using Notepad++? I can't remember if they auto append braces. Ooo, also try Brackets, a code editor for web and other languages. It's a beaut and has addons. I really love the interface and management. http://brackets.io And the only reason I got it was for the live preview it has. It makes it the perfect solution for perfectly sizing elements in css and making sure your php works. No refreshing needed.
In response to Xirre
Xirre wrote:
Ssj4justdale wrote:
Also, I normally program in a notepad for things like PHP and such, so those braces don't automatically appear :p force of habit now

Understandable. When I first started programming in C# and PHP I almost always came back to DM trying to add a semicolon. After a while I got used to the constant transition and now I can go between the two with ease. Are you using Notepad++? I can't remember if they auto append braces. Ooo, also try Brackets, a code editor for web and other languages. It's a beaut and has addons. I really love the interface and management. http://brackets.io And the only reason I got it was for the live preview it has. It makes it the perfect solution for perfectly sizing elements in css and making sure your php works. No refreshing needed.

I normally use regular notepad/ default text editor and I use notepad++at times. When I do php, I do it based off the text editor my cpanel provides from my web host. brackets.io seems interesting and I'll take a look at it, especially for CSS.
GatewayRa wrote:
I don't know why people combine semantical preferences and conventions from other languages. To me it's just stupid, and it ends up being nothing more than cluttered, inconsistent and not very optimal at all.

When you're working in a language, try to work in it the way a programmer of it would-- the best of its kind at that.


I like to disagree. To me, it says consistent and allows me to be versatile. Cluttered? It looks nice and professional. Not very optimal? I see no change in performance doing it both ways.

What is your argument?
In response to Ssj4justdale
In general, programmers aren't writing for themselves, and other people are going to see their code. It might be easier for you to keep changing style and convention based on your use of multiple languages, but for people who expect a certain language to be written a certain way, you are ruining the consistency for everyone else.
In response to Kaiochao
Kaiochao wrote:
In general, programmers aren't writing for themselves, and other people are going to see their code. It might be easier for you to keep changing style and convention based on your use of multiple languages, but for people who expect a certain language to be written a certain way, you are ruining the consistency for everyone else.

True, but it'll create bad habits for just about any other language.
In response to Ssj4justdale
Ssj4justdale wrote:
Kaiochao wrote:
In general, programmers aren't writing for themselves, and other people are going to see their code. It might be easier for you to keep changing style and convention based on your use of multiple languages, but for people who expect a certain language to be written a certain way, you are ruining the consistency for everyone else.

True, but it'll create bad habits for just about any other language.

You have no clue how much it frustrates me to see crap like this:
    if(fart) emitgass(); burp(); src << "You farted where you burp and you burped where you fart."; del usr; killAllThoseWhoBreathedItIn(502345938942589348952893489589234895);


I WILL END YOU IF YOU ARE THE PERSON WHO DOES THIS. THERE IS NO NEED. YOU'RE FOOLING NO ONE THAT YOU "CONDENSED" CODE.

Especially without curly brackets. I have NOT experimented enough in this form of coding (nor do I want to even TRY to learn because it's not something I want in my brain) to understand whether or not a code falls under the if statement. For example, what if you have an else next to a semicolon? Or, what if you have a tab in between the semicolons and another line statement? What happens then? I haven't tested the possibility. Nor do I want to squish it in with the current understanding of the language. Learn to follow the standard practices, god dammit!
In response to Ssj4justdale
Ssj4justdale wrote:
http://www.byond.com/developer/Hiead/PongSource

Haha

He essentially did this. Which is okay for saving some data. But not for like 100 characters. No. I sentence thee to life!

And we don't really have anything to uncondense them automatically. We could probably use the {} for it... yess... we can. I'm going to write something up real quick.
In response to Xirre
Xirre wrote:
Ssj4justdale wrote:
http://www.byond.com/developer/Hiead/PongSource

Haha

He essentially did this. Which is okay for saving some data. But not for like 100 characters. No. I sentence thee to life!

And we don't really have anything to uncondense them automatically. We could probably use the {} for it... yess... we can. I'm going to write something up real quick.


Haha enjoy
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