You picked the best place to look.
Vegito9000 wrote:
BYOND is no place to go looking for help. All it's good for is starting arguments and aggravations. (In most cases) Now your starting to get it. But also, even if your go to a better location - your going to need to have more than an idea to form a team. | |
Don't judge everybody here by this thread. Almost nobody in this thread actually develops anything. They are just here to pick fights and chew bubblegum. And there's a serious bubblegum shortage here.
The folks that actually have the ability to do stuff by and large don't post on these boards. There are a few exceptions, but they are very few. That said, if you are looking for 3D work, odds are you want to look in another community. I'm one of the small handful of people around these parts that has done work in 3D, but there's a reason I make 2D games. It's because I don't like working in 3D as a final product. You'll find that there's a strong preference toward 2D art within this community, and it's mostly because of either lack of experience with 3D art, or lack of interest in it. You are better served looking elsewhere, but there's still no reason that this post turned into what it did. The regular posters we have around here live for a shitpost, and that's about it. They claim they want to see BYOND get better, but they actively make it worse at every turn. Good luck, Vegito. May you redeem the poor reputation of religious-themed games with your future work. So help me if there isn't a "murder your son because Yahweh told you to on a dare" minigame, you are doing it wrong. | |
Xirre wrote:
[...] If you loved what you do, you'd do it for free. Even if you don't do it full-time. [...] I'm really wary of the advocation that people should be willing to do work for free, especially if it's something that they love (or the sweet, sweet promise of a percentage of the eventual profits). It contributes to the expectation that people should almost always be willing to work for free. It's a really common refrain, particularly for freelancers of any industry/interest, amateur or professional. I know that you continue to say that people shouldn't reject paid offers if they occur, but that doesn't detract from the underlying message. I work in web development/design for a living. I love what I do and the opportunities that I've had, and I cannot imagine working in any other industry. I get compensated exceedingly well for what I do (hopefully the keyloggers at work take note of this! PS is a happy little peon!), but I also use my skills as a hobby or in leisure activities (I'm a very boring person). I fuckin' love what I do, but in most cases I won't do it for free. No one should feel like the love of what they do (hobby or otherwise) devalues their efforts and time. With recognition, of course, that many people overvalue their skills. That said, when it comes to compensation @Vegito9000 has approached this in the correct way. He's upfront in stating that he will likely not pay someone for the services that they provide. This gives each member of the community the opportunity to decide if they are willing to join in the project. Some people may; most people may not. But there's no expectation that people should (assuming that this is something that would interest them). @Vegito9000 seems like a pretty cool fellow. I say good luck to him in his endeavor! | |
The pay requirement is fairly straight-forward, in terms of rationale, for most people. 99 times out of 100, I will find my own ideas more interesting to work on than someone else's. And being craft-minded, I have many of my own project ideas, all the time basically. Money is the tool others then use to sway my decision making, and put aside my own ideas in favour of someone else's. That, I'd like to think, is fairly common sense and quite an understandable viewpoint. Certainly I think most here would find that their own projects/ideas motivate far more than stuff they read in classified ads, even though truthfully the ideas may not be vastly different in quality sometimes.
No matter how good the idea someone else wants you to work on, it's a rare day when a creative/craft-minded individual will naturally favour someone else's project over their own. Vegito9000 has kind of taken that into account (knowingly or otherwise), when deciding on the pay aspect in his project and I would assume understand that it reduces the pool of people willing to work on his project. | |
It reduces the pool drastically.
The problem is that everyone on BYOND is spoiled. Many of our users have never even ventured outside of this site and actually learned how game development works. Making games is work just like anything else. Hundreds upon hundreds of hours goes into making games, especially when working with Unity and 3D, and since BYOND is essentially this site where the kids have an insane sense of entitlement, they think the reality of the situation is that there are hundreds of talented programmers, artists, etc. who are just sitting around looking to spend, what, 6-8 hours of every day making YOUR dream come true for virtually nothing in return? The people who are willing to work for no pay at all are few and far between, and the people who are very skilled at what they do and willing to work for no pay are unicorns. This is like the only site on the internet where compensation is considered taboo. It goes back to the point I made in another thread about the site being overrun by hobbyists. Which, there's nothing wrong with developing games as hobbyists, but when you're making an attempt to cross over into actually trying to go professional, you need to like, be professional and pay people, dude. Not some "ill give you some dollars after it's successful" BS. That doesn't work in the real world, only on BYOND. In the real world, people have this thing called expenses, and they're not going to work 8 hour jobs and get paid, and then come home and spend another 8 hours of their free time making your dreams a reality in exchange for nothing. Especially in game development since we all tend to be very creative and we can be picky about which sorts of games we want to make and which we don't. | |
One thing I'm going to say here, that I meant to say towards just about every other post I've replied to is I am only disagreeing to agree. If that makes sense? I agree with you, but there's more to discuss. Another side to things, if you will. I hope you find some minor humor in my posts as I'm not a hostile person until you blatantly see me being so.
EmpirezTeam wrote: ...virtually nothing in return... Technically you do get something virtually in the return. You get the final product finished. Virtually. But, continue. ...are unicorns. If this includes me then, "Why thank you! :3" Otherwise, "Oh... poo." ...This is like the only site on the internet where compensation is considered taboo. No. No no, no! NO! NOOOOO!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT! Well, The only reason I oppose this sentence is because I've found some exceptional programmers, graphics artists, 3D modelers, and a somewhat good sound artist within 2 days on the Unity3D forums. Did things go well? No. Why? They didn't learn to stay in their roles. There were two designers, including myself. But, there was constantly 2 out of the 6 people trying to give ideas to a project that was somewhat set. They got ahead of themselves. So, the project fell apart. But, this was about 2 years ago. So, it no longer matters. Continue. In the real world, people have this thing called expenses, and they're not going to work 8 hour jobs and get paid, and then come home and spend another 8 hours of their free time making your dreams a reality in exchange for nothing. Oh, I didn't realize. Lol. I'll just leave them to play Call of Duty. Y'know, something that doesn't contribute to anything. That is, unless they play in Tournaments. Which they probably don't. One thing I can get at here is that whenever I work with someone I don't make it appoint for them to constantly be working at all times. And I don't force them to work either. Whenever I would work with Ss4toby we would work whenever we could. He was actually working an actual job. When he got home, he'd get on Skype (as he'd normally do before we even met) and we'd talk for a bit about things unrelated to BYOND. After a while, we started working on our project. When we left BYOND for a bit, we worked on a few other projects as well. We don't only work on game develop. We actually chill too. Sometimes we'd play League, Rust, and multiple other games. Programming is a hobby and we treat it as such. If we make money from our hobby, so be it. When you treat it as a job, that's when you deserve money. You treat it as a job when you need a job. If you don't need a job... then you don't "have this thing called expenses". You get what I mean, homie? Especially in game development since we all tend to be very creative and we can be picky about which sorts of games we want to make and which we don't. No kidding. I recently took up a project that I won't speak about until the time is right. I don't normally program things for people because it becomes time consuming and over time I become frustrated and uninterested. But, if it is short and sweet, I don't mind engaging in it because I can manage a small challenge any day. Since it seemed to be a small project, I took the offer. Currently, the only thing holding me up is the art and design. Which I must say, is coming along nicely. One of the reasons I actually started enjoying the project is because my free ability to manipulate the design of the UI so long as it stays within the lines of the end requirements. Or so I've come to realize. But, yes. Working for something that you take no interest in NOT something I'd do for free. That's like working a job. You're not suppose to like your job. Otherwise, it's a hobby you just get paid for, brah. | |
You're not suppose to like your job Eh? | |
Stephen001 wrote:
You're not suppose to like your job That's what everyone makes it seem like to me, Stephen. They come home crying about a long day's work and complaining about how they never want to go back. You never see Google employees going in and coming home complaining about how they never want to go back. Those bastards would live at their job. Though, I shouldn't call them bastards. I love their environment. Edit: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=job+definition - a task or piece of work, especially one that is paid. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=task+definition - a piece of work to be done or undertaken. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=work+definition - synonyms (verb): toil, labor, exert oneself, slave (away); http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+labor - noun I don't think a Trojan is good. Nor is it fun. Edit2: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hobby+definition | |
Well, it depends on the person and situation, really. I can imagine there being plenty of Google employees that don't much like their job, and plenty of grocery shelf stackers that do actually kinda like their job.
I'm fairly blessed, in so far as I enjoy my career in general, and my skills are in demand, so I get a reasonable pick of specific roles. It's very intellectually stimulating for me. For other people, they'd like to be able to leave their brain at home, plod at work for a while and then invest their intellectual efforts elsewhere. And in many respects this feeds into the "expenses" situation. If I make no real distinction between job and hobby, for instance, then the "expenses" matter is more about compensation for me investing my time into someone else's project, versus playing Call of Duty, as you say. Because while you can deride that, I do get the option of playing CoD versus working on some guy's project, and playing CoD might well be the more personally interesting/entertaining thing. So what's a guy who wants my skills on their project to do? They have to make their offering more interesting to me. The easiest way to do that usually is to pay me. | |
Xirre wrote:
That's what everyone makes it seem like to me, Stephen. They come home crying about a long day's work and complaining about how they never want to go back. You never see Google employees going in and coming home complaining about how they never want to go back. Those bastards would live at their job. Though, I shouldn't call them bastards. I love their environment. I think that you're conflating issues. American culture emphasizes work. We live to work and are defined by the jobs that we perform. There's also a huge drive to succeed, which leads to terrible work-life balances (of which many corporations appreciate). At the same time, we instill into people this idea that they should choose a career that they love. You see this more commonly in students as they try to discover at what they excel, what they enjoy, and how to achieve. We iterate this idea that we should find something that we enjoy, often without understanding that those very things may not be enough to support us (and, for many, our families). Unfortunately, the two philosophies are frequently at odds with one another: I should find a job that I love, but many of the careers that would meet that esoteric definition of successfully achieving the American Dream suck. They may require the performance of tedious repetitive tasks, long grueling hours, unreasonable expectations, and piss-poor work-life balance, which often leaves even the successful ones unable to enjoy the fruits of their labor. And all of this cultivates a feeling of inadequacy, of failure, of animosity, and of remorse. I wish that we could embrace a new culture that isn't defined by our careers and the struggle to work. I'd rather that we accept the idea that we work in order to live, which would involve better work-life balances and the ability to have the time to pursue the interests that we love rather than expecting work to fulfill those needs. | |
Xirre wrote:
Technically you do get something virtually in the return. You get the final product finished. Virtually. But, continue. I see what you did there. ...This is like the only site on the internet where compensation is considered taboo. This is why I bolded "very skilled" in that paragraph. I'm adding emphasis on the fact that if you do indeed find someone to work for you for free, there's usually going to be a lack of skill, discipline and dedication to the project. Why do you think so many BYOND games fail? People are working for free, so they couldn't care less about whether or not the game gets finished. In the real world, people have this thing called expenses, and they're not going to work 8 hour jobs and get paid, and then come home and spend another 8 hours of their free time making your dreams a reality in exchange for nothing. That's what most people do, that's why it's called free time. People want to work and then relax. People are free to do whatever they want in their free time, whether or not it's meaningful or contributes something to society. I write and play League in my free time - neither of those things are exactly contributing much to anything except maybe the writing once I get done with it. One thing I can get at here is that whenever I work with someone I don't make it appoint for them to constantly be working at all times. And I don't force them to work either. That's not an optimal way to get stuff done. Plus, you can't force anyone to do anything even if you wanted to if it's unpaid work. There's literally zero obligation involved. It's like, the equivalent of people getting together to start a band, but your guitar player only wants to play shows on Tuesdays at 3:00PM, your drummer wants all weekends off, the guy driving your tour bus around can only work 2 hour shifts. That band isn't going anywhere. Someone has to come up with goals and deadlines, and say "We're doing 5 shows this week in Nashville. Everyone needs to be ready at 12:00. If you can't make it, you're off the band." Without discipline people just do whatever the hell they want. That's why we constantly have so many users on BYOND making "such and such abandoned my project" or "I can't find anyone to reliably work for me" threads. When we left BYOND for a bit, we worked on a few other projects as well. We don't only work on game develop. We actually chill too. Sometimes we'd play League, Rust, and multiple other games. Programming is a hobby and we treat it as such. If we make money from our hobby, so be it. When you treat it as a job, that's when you deserve money. You treat it as a job when you need a job. If you don't need a job... then you don't "have this thing called expenses". You get what I mean, homie? If you're a hobbyist, you need to expect hobbyist results. This kid wants to make an Old Testament game in Unity3D. His inexperience coupled with the fact that there aren't exactly hundreds upon hundreds of talented Unity3D developers waiting in line to make an Adam and Eve RPG for free. Your style of work is fine for just screwing around in small projects you care next to nothing about, but it sounds like he wants a good game and wants it to actually be finished. His way of going about it is pretty bad, which is why I posted. I'm basically trying to get him to understand that if he wants to succeed at this, he needs to pretty much NOT do what he sees the average BYONDer doing, and one of those things is expecting talented, skilled people with lives to stop what their doing to make your bible game idea for no compensation. Promising people GM verbs or shared revenue "if game is completed" doesn't cut it. Why would they do that when there's Unity3D people hiring out there who will actually pay them by the hour and have thorough design documents and are being directed by people who have far more experience? Because BYOND is full of hobbyists, and because a lot of us have been here for years and rarely get into other game communities, we assume that what goes on here is the norm, or the way game development is supposed to be. The lack of compensation, obsession over base icons, announcing a project like it's almost finished when in reality all you have is art and like 2 lines of code, leaking each other's sources like a bunch of idiots is not game design, it's just a dysfunctional part of the BYOND community. Of course there's idiots all across the internet but this is a hobbyist site which is why it festers even more here. Unity is marked more toward professionals, which is why a lot of the people using it are paying, getting paid, and getting stuff done. That's why multiple Unity games are on Steam while we have a grand total of one ( unless someone has done another one recently but I check Steam frequently so I'm sure I would've noticed a BYOND game if it was on the front page ). | |
You have no idea how much this thread is starting to turn me on. So many juicy posts. When I get off mobile and on to a computer I am going to give you all something big. Very big. But, seriously, I am seeing some awesome replies here that are very informational and shows the different sides of people.
All I can say right now, for the sake of not cramping my fingers, is that you're all right. In a way. Edit: I'm too tired now. It seems I only get productive when actually at school. Time to play some games. Bye. | |
Don't bother... The You Testament
| |
Stephen001 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcdahFU2BOs Yup. Loved every minute of it. Even though I didn't even watch a minute. | |
So? I'm willing to find a bare bones team, if only to get a teaser, a base, something of the game going.
I'll tell you all this right now though, when I started this post, I knew my chances were few, so you don't have to keep pointing it out.
I will keep my eyes on here, but I now understand that BYOND is no place to go looking for help. All it's good for is starting arguments and aggravations. (In most cases)