ID:1814060
 
I have a problem with heroes. Which, this wasn't a problem back when I was growing up with Goku and Wolverine as some of my favorite heroes, but it is now because as a storyteller you begin to care less about the transformations or supernatural abilities and more about the actual character themselves.

Whenever someone says "hero", usually the first thing that immediately comes to mind is strength. Some tall, muscular, impenetrable-looking man. Superman and Hercules for instance. You also generally think of charisma, someone who is attractive and speaks well and with authority. And of course, finally you associate it with them saving someone, I mean I think we can all agree that you're not a hero until you've saved people.

What if I said I didn't like this definition? And no, I'm not about to say that I think the best heroes are people like Walter White who are essentially protagonists who happen to be villains, or characters like Deadpool who are just... full retard. But Bilbo Baggins for instance. See, Bilbo is a hero I can get behind.

Bilbo is not some guy with superhuman strength. He's not a man of intimidating stature, with bass in his voice. He's not some Adonis that makes all the girls get wet, but he's just as much of a hero as anyone I mentioned above. Bilbo shows that heroes don't have to be powerful, or have supernatural abilities, or even be skilled at combat PERIOD. Bilbo's strengths are qualities we often overlook in a hero. Their composure, their courage, their compassion, their intelligence. We often forget these traits because the ones that are emphasized the most are always, as I mentioned before, the strength and swagger.

And Bilbo isn't some guy who gained the courage to fight because he became strong overnight ( Spiderman ), he's not some guy who fights because something bad happened to his parents ( Batman ), he's not some guy who fights because he finds out he's invincible ( Superman ). Do you know why Bilbo fights? This quote from him describes it all:

"Look, I know you doubt me, I know you always have. And you're right... I often think of Bag End. I miss my books, and my armchair, and my garden. See, that's where I belong, that's home. That's why I came back... 'cause you don't have one, a home. It was taken from you. But I will help you take it back if I can. "

This was one of the greatest things I've ever heard come out of a heroes mouth. He's not fighting out of overconfidence or vengeance or some holier than thou BS. He travels all across Middle-earth facing elves, giant spiders, orcs, even a dragon knowing that he'll most likely die all for some hairy, drunken dwarves who barged in his house unannounced one day, and his reason was none other than "I know the importance of a home, so if you say yours was stolen from you, and you guys need my help getting it back, then I'll help."

Granted, Bilbo wasn't exactly super raring to go at first, but this goes back to my point about Bilbo. The only reason he wasn't is because he was acknowledging the fact that he's not your average hero. He wasn't a warrior, he didn't have magic powers, he's just a man who quietly read books in his home and tended to his garden. How the hell was he supposed to save the dwarves? On top of all this, even one of the things he was good at isn't something we normally acknowledge as a heroic trait, and that was stealing. His ability to get in, take something, and get back out played a huge part in the dwarves succeeding. He was also very patient ( unlike Mr. Superman over here who just flies at the speed of a bullet everywhere ) as seen when they reach the Lonely Mountain and the door doesn't open.

Do you realize that in that situation, it doesn't matter how strong Bilbo was, or how tall he was, or if he had swagger, or if he had the ability to throw energy beams or not. He didn't find the keyhole because of strength, he found the keyhole because he waited. Patience. Optimism. Refusal to give up. All the dwarves had gone back down the mountain, but not him. He wasn't taking no for an answer. Once again he teaches us the important lesson that you can be a puny gardener and still save the day.

Bilbo is an awesome hero because he takes all the heroic qualities we pay no attention to and puts them directly in our faces, and takes the heroic qualities we all recognize immediately and throws them away. A lot of Disney movies do this, but I'm not really bringing them into the equation since LOTRO is more of a serious, fantasy war setting whereas most Disney movies aren't and show less violence and more humor since they're directed toward a younger audience. I'm strictly referring to how your average action movie protagonist or comic book hero is usually a hero via their strength and awesome appearance, or just a complete anti-hero jackass.

IDK, maybe I'm just bored at this point with the same old, same old. And you can see its effects on our society. We call people like Michael Jordan ( skill and charisma ) or Manny Pacquiao ( strength ) or Beyonce ( attractiveness ) heroes every day, but we only call the firemen who rushed into a collapsing building to save a life ( courage ) a hero once a year on 9/11. That's messed up if you ask me. We need to start acknowledging the Bilbos in real life, instead of focusing on and throwing our money at these front and center celebrities who in reality don't do much. MJ shoots balls into a hoop and sells shoes, Manny beats the crap out of people and Beyonce sings while twerking. Why exactly are these the people we idolize?
I think I understand the heroes you like, you prefer the ones who you aren't envious of and don't want to be.

Lot's of people would want to be the dudes you described in the second paragraph but not too many people would want to be a really short guy, with not much fighting skills and huge hairy feet.

I am kind of in the same boat as you, I think guys like Superman and He-man are way too cheesey.

My favorite character is usually a member of the support cast, normally a tactician or one who can take a serious beating, like Piccolo from DBZ or Ironhide from Transformers, who both fit both of those characteristics.
http://files.byondhome.com/TheMagicMan/the%20best%20hero.jpg

Don't mind me, just posting the best hero ever.

Just remember kids

100 PUSH UPS
100 SIT UPS
100 SQUATS
AND 10KM RUNNING
EVERY SINGLE DAY
A hero is not one without flaws, but one who can "be a hero" despite having those flaws. Heroes are round characters. Superman? Flat. He-man? Flat. Goku? Flat. Vegeta? Now we're getting somewhere.
Good topic, Empirez.

I think you're absolutely right. I also think this is an interesting topic because I believe that we as humans really do appreciate the little guys that rise up through intelligence, valor, and perseverance. I know I get a lot more out of a hero like that than someone like Goku, whose character development seems replaced with growth in physical ability rather than actual character traits.

So I'm not really sure why we don't see more Frodos, Sams, or Bilbos. Tolkien was a genius who I consider on a tier of writing ability of his own, but making good characters isn't really rocket science -- it just takes more effort. Are we as a culture lazy when it comes to stories?

I do think that there's something about the Hobbits' stories that doesn't appeal to us -- namely that it's really hard to be people like them. Most people adore the their heroic traits, but don't want to be them. They want to be like Superman: born with an inherent strength that doesn't require the tough parts of being a hero. Perhaps that is what's so appealing.
In response to Fugsnarf
Fugsnarf wrote:
I think you're absolutely right. I also think this is an interesting topic because I believe that we as humans really do appreciate the little guys that rise up through intelligence, valor, and perseverance.

I think this is very true for people who live in capitalist societies. We just love those underdog stories. Where people don't have to be born with 'goods' to be successful.
There should just be more heroes who aren't so "im going to power up and be super strong and kick your butt" and more heroes who are "i'll simply defeat you with wit". We keep sending out the message that the most important trait of a hero is their physical strength, and that's a load of BS.

I'm not sure if you've guys have seen the movie "Red Cliff" ( which is actually a 2 part movie ) but it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.



This scene depicts it perfectly. In case you plan to watch it you probably shouldn't keep reading if you don't like stuff to be spoiled, but the situation is that Zhuge Liang ( the guy in white ) is a strategist, and the army he's temporarily aligned himself with ( the kingdom of Wu ) desperately needs arrows for the upcoming naval battle against the kingdom of Wei. So, this brilliant son of a gun had an idea: send boats with Wu flags and scarecrows that look like real men from a distance on them toward Cao Cao's army ( the antagonist of the movie ) and Cao Cao will have his men attack it with arrows.

Then, just steer the boats back to Wu territory, and mission complete. Take the arrows off the boats and out of the scarecrows, and your archers can fill their quivers now. Sun Quan ( commander of Wu ) then sent a letter to Cao Cao's army which tricked Cao Cao into believing that his two newly acquired naval commanders were actually traitors, so he had them beheaded.

Buuuut there was one teeny, weensy problem with that. Those two naval experts he killed were like, the only two people experienced in naval combat in Cao Cao's army. So with Cao Cao's army now hugely crippled by the fact that they have to wage war completely ignorant of naval combat, Wu used the same arrows Wei so conveniently donated to them, set them ablaze, and shot them back at Wei's boats which ignited the boats. Wei's boats were also all chained together, so all they had to do was burn the first row of boats, and the fire spread from the first row to the row behind it, and the row behind that one which caused complete chaos among the Wei forces until they could barely defend anymore.

Anyway, I said all that to point out that wit won the battle at the Red Cliffs. If it was up to power, Wei would've won, but he was outsmarted by two cunning, not PHYSICALLY POWERFUL, heroes. It's one of the reasons I'm a Romance of the Three Kingdoms fan. There's so many instances of people proving that brain triumphs over brawn in it.
There's so many instances of proving brawn over brain over the course of history as well. Even if it's inefficient, if you smash your head against a brick wall enough times, it will break.
In response to Lugia319
Lugia319 wrote:
There's so many instances of proving brawn over brain over the course of history as well.

Or if you get smacked with a spoon enough times you'll die.

thats why my favourite heros are alucard and yuno.

and if you want heros with wit there are plenty.
code geass, Artemis fowl

My favourite hero's are the ones that are serial killers.

people like yuno (future diaries) alucard (from hellsing), and dexter (from dexter)
you dont know them? though guts from berserk is my fav hero too. I have lots of favourite heros

yuno :

 photo yunoShow_zpskicd8ca8.jpg

Alucard(you must know him hes famous):

 photo alucard_zpsiqhyh7ov.jpg

and if you haven't seen future diaries go watch it now. Best horror romance I've ever seen.
Future Diaries isn't a horror romance. It's not even a romance. It was good but it wasn't great. The only character of any interest is the one that loses an eye in episode 2 or something.
In response to Lugia319
Future diaries is a romance. The whole story revolves around yuki and yuno falling in love. And to me it was one of my favourite. So good and great will change from person to person.

It's just a romance with an actual story. I know it's hard to confuse it for something else as most romance have no plot.
In response to DanteVFenris
Protagonist!=hero, sorry. Alucard is more anti-hero and Dexter is no where near a hero(just because he kills killers).

There are plenty of mainstream heros that more so apply wit to win, but most of them are coupled with at least some physical strength(Batman and his stable, for instance).
Hero's and morality is up to social ideologies. There's no set state of good or bad. Too me alucard is good so to me he is a hero.

Dexter is also a hero to me because of just his personality and the way he handles situations I find heroic.
In response to DanteVFenris
DanteVFenris wrote:
It's just a romance with an actual story. I know it's hard to confuse it for something else as most romance have no plot.

No, it's not "a romance with an actual story". It's about as "romance with an actual story" as Twilight is.
Twighlight wasn't a story... It attempted to portray a story. But failed. When your climax is a dream you know you've done a lot wrong. I used to right fiction so I'm pretty critical of story telling. Twighlight was definatley one of the worst stories I've seen.
In response to DanteVFenris
DanteVFenris wrote:
Twighlight wasn't a story... It attempted to portray a story. But failed. When your climax is a dream you know you've done a lot wrong. I used to right fiction so I'm pretty critical of story telling. Twighlight was definatley one of the worst stories I've seen.

I guess you understand my point then.
Future diaries had one of the biggest plot twists with excellent character development. It was no twighlight. But everyone has there opinions I can't argue with you if you disagree
In response to DanteVFenris
DanteVFenris wrote:
Twighlight wasn't a story... It attempted to portray a story. But failed. When your climax is a dream you know you've done a lot wrong. I used to right fiction so I'm pretty critical of story telling. Twighlight was definatley one of the worst stories I've seen.

but it had bella, bro.



dat face tho. how can you resist dat tho
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