Vic Rattlehead wrote:
Which is it - are you renting internet or not?! When did I act like I wasn't o.O And as I said, more or less. Its not like I'm renting some magical internet speed. I'm renting a server; basically just a computer; which is connected to a 100/100 line. | |
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If it's a 100 download/100 upload connection (BS, by the way), why did your speedtest show like 88/33? | |
Vic Rattlehead wrote:
[link] Yea, as I said in the infinite loop of repeats here. I rent a server. If it's a 100 download/100 upload connection (BS, by the way), why did your speedtest show like 88/33? Dunno? Poor connection to test site? Test site speed limit? Some down speed on the server itself? - I believe its technically connected to some local connection-site which then allocates speeds to all of the servers. Also, here's a screen shot of network utilization: http://www.angelfire.com/hero/straygames/ByondBugs/ NetworkGraph.png | |
Falacy wrote:
I could probably fund such a project. However there would be no kickback for me Well, there would be. Several even! For one, and likely most important for you, you'd actually get that lag-free games (at least for Americans) you are talking about done. That would, like you said, help to improve the experience of the average BYOND customer and would thus support BYOND, which should be counted as advantage for you as well, since that is what you are using. And, as a special benefit, if you manage to drive enough new paying clientèle towards BYOND, I assure you that your word would suddenly gain a certain... weight. So, if you can pull it off easy, where are the drawbacks? Falacy wrote: If the hub is still running rampant with rips, no repercussions for stealing, spamming, lieing; then even with the better games propelled to the front it wont accomplish as much as it could. But that is not customer-friendly market economy, as you seem to aim for with the concept (unless I misunderstood you). If your concept can not provide enough advantages and benefits to convince enough customers by it's own, then it should not be accounted for with the hypothesis of a better customer experience in mind. Either a lag-less, good, original game can attract more clientèle, like you suggested as benefit for BYOND, or it can not, in which case your point as to why BYOND should strive for this is void. Falacy wrote: digitalBYOND was a poorly managed service from every angle, I used to use it. As from what I could read up, it seems to have stumbled on the lack of 'paying moral', which is exactly what happens when a service like you intend to offer it lasts longer than a couple of days. The first time used, people tend to think, 'Cool, I'll support this', but the enthusiasm soon fades, together with the monetary fund. Falacy wrote: I see no reason to put limitations on any of them. Unless one is using insanely excessive resources. I currently host multiple servers of multiple BYOND games on my server and haven't had any issues. Neither CPU usage nor /sec bandwidth ever come anywhere close to max. Such a server is bound to reach it's limits only just too fast. Unless, you equal 'competent game maker' to 'supreme ruler and smartest man in the universe' ;) When there are set limitations, you can only operate within them and CPU/bandwidth/RAM/HDD are such fix limitations. Falacy wrote: Most of these services offer what you pay for. But that does not mean they suck? If I get what I pay for, how could I complain about that? Falacy wrote: (...)that isn't even worth having. That is what I asked you to elaborate on. How exactly do they lack (which limitation cuts in and how is it being noticeable for the player)? Falacy wrote: Most, if not all of them, are shared servers, running a non-windows OS, with low speeds/ram/storage/bandwidth/etc. I would certainly hope that they are running a non-windows OS. Everything else would mean they have little to no idea on what is a good hosting solution. (You get away with less resources hosting on a non-Windows system and you save on the payment to Microsoft. Yet, you get delivered a better native functionality for shared user systems and get a far more stable, customizable system.) As for the shared server that seems to be exactly what you suggested. | |
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
Well, there would be. I can (and do) already offer the best BYOND can handle through my own server and games (lag wise) And, as a special benefit, if you manage to drive enough new paying clientèle towards BYOND, I assure you that your word would suddenly gain a certain... weight. I think I already have as much "weight" as they're going to give me unless I start completely paying all their bills for them =P So, if you can pull it off easy, where are the drawbacks? My hobo fund will be drained without anything refilling it? =( Either a lag-less, good, original game can attract more clientèle, like you suggested as benefit for BYOND, or it can not, in which case your point as to why BYOND should strive for this is void. This is already the case more or less. The games don't even have to be good or original, its mostly about the lag-less. The rip with the best servers pretty much reigns supreme for a while. Usually it dies off, finale has probably been the longest running one. It doesn't really offer anything other games don't, a few new features here or there, same graphics, same tired game play, so why does it have the most players? Because its servers can hold 20x what other rips can before they start to lag. There have been several games before it that all followed the same circumstances. Its obviously not stopping the 1000 other rips from spamming up the hub though. As from what I could read up, it seems to have stumbled on the lack of 'paying moral', which is exactly what happens when a service like you intend to offer it lasts longer than a couple of days. What? digitalBYOND was a pay to use service... Though as I said, it was poorly managed. Since this would most likely be free-to-use, that shouldn't at all be a problem. Though if it wasn't, payment regulations should be strictly enforced (by a computer). Such a server is bound to reach it's limits only just too fast. Unless, you equal 'competent game maker' to 'supreme ruler and smartest man in the universe' ;) Of the 200 games that are live right now, how many of them do you think are original? Maybe 20% (40) at best. I host 10 using 25ish% CPU and not even mentionable /sec bandwidth, probably with around 300 players between them. Space is another not worth mentioning aspect, BYOND games don't really take up that much space =P But that does not mean they suck? Aside from the fact that they're going to be 24/7 (and even that may be negligible) in most cases you could just host your BYOND game from your home computer with the same results these servers offer, sometimes even better ones. I would certainly hope that they are running a non-windows OS. Everything else would mean they have little to no idea on what is a good hosting solution. In general that's the case, however not so much with BYOND. Which is yet another problem with the generic hosting options. As for the shared server that seems to be exactly what you suggested. Well yes, however this server(s?) wouldn't be divvying up server space, usage, etc. They also wouldn't be split between non-BYOND applications/storage/usage, or split at all really. | |
Falacy wrote:
somebody provides some sort of open-server system for BYOND that can host multiple games with hundreds of people without lagging and can be accessed by multiple game owners http://www.farawayhost.com/ http://www.farawayhost.com/byond (for an explanation of the system; though the manual is outdated) And while you do have to pay for that, you also have to pay for your BYOND Membership. It's just too bad not many people see the benefit of using FAH for hosting since more people signing up for it = better systems put in place. It's only $5.99/month for an account with 50 MB RAM. A normal BYOND world only uses 4 MB of RAM. Your average Naruto/Bleach game only uses up 25 MB, and it isn't exactly expensive (+$3/mo) to bump up to 100 MB. With this your service is managed by us and you don't have to mess around with Linux yourself to get what you want. You can easily see your current RAM usage from the control panel, and you can freely run .so files (it's Linux after all) since your games can be run in "trusted" mode. Heck, despite the lack of FTP access, you can use the control panel itself to create a .zip archive of your savefiles and download them if you feel the need. And of course you can extract .zip files. So please, before you start begging BYOND Staff to even make the hosting of your BYOND worlds free, give Farawayhost a go-- unlike some other hosts out there we're reliable enough not to leave you in the dark. | |
Falacy wrote:
I can (and do) already offer the best BYOND can handle through my own server and games (lag wise) Though, if I understood you correctly, the goal was a more wide spread success ;) Falacy wrote: I think I already have as much "weight" as they're going to give me unless I start completely paying all their bills for them =P Which is actually exactly what you'd be doing, if your plan was as successful and beneficial for BYOND as you suggest (getting several hundred/thousand new paying customers referred by you got to have some sort of impact on BYOND and it's staff). Falacy wrote: My hobo fund will be drained without anything refilling it? =( That would mean you are actually doubting your own idea. If you think this could be run based on donations, or on net gain by BYOND, you should be able to run it that way just fine (by direct donations, or through a deal with BYOND and massive referrals). Falacy wrote: This is already the case more or less. The games don't even have to be good or original, its mostly about the lag-less. Which is the point I was trying to get across. So, contrary to your initial statement of needing a strict rip policy, you now state that this is not a key factor. Falacy wrote: digitalBYOND was a pay to use service... Though as I said, it was poorly managed. Since this would most likely be free-to-use, that shouldn't at all be a problem. I more like meant to hint at getting the funds to run a service such as this. It is not 'free', since somebody has to pay the server, which is where the lacking continuous support moral I meant to describe comes into play. Falacy wrote: Of the 200 games that are live right now, how many of them do you think are original? Depends on how you define original. Falacy wrote: Space is another not worth mentioning aspect, BYOND games don't really take up that much space =P Space is not the only limiting factor on an HDD. Access-time can drag you down a lot and a talented developer would certainly consider dynamically instancing areas. Just to name a prominent example that you are bound to encounter. Falacy wrote: Aside from the fact that they're going to be 24/7 (and even that may be negligible) in most cases you could just host your BYOND game from your home computer with the same results these servers offer, sometimes even better ones. You don't happen to have any solid facts and sources to base this on, now do you? Or do you just not want to show these figures? Falacy wrote: Well yes, however this server(s?) wouldn't be divvying up server space, usage, etc. They also wouldn't be split between non-BYOND applications/storage/usage, or split at all really. How would that massively effect performance? Being the multi-user system it is designed for, *nix handles these tasks without massive resource hogging, so the only difference would be in the scale/available resources, which is, like you mentioned, simply a matter of monetary issues. | |
Android Data wrote:
http://www.farawayhost.com/ Connection speed? (seems to be mysteriously missing, and probably most important when it comes to hosting) Storage space? (not too big of an issue) | |
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
That would mean you are actually doubting your own idea. I doubt this, or pretty much anything, could run off of true donations alone. And though I'm pretty sure it could/would mean more money for BYOND, it doesn't necessarily mean any for me. Which is the point I was trying to get across. I didn't say it would be needed, I just said it wouldn't accomplish as much without one. Depends on how you define original. Not a rip of another BYOND game. Otherwise I'd say there are negative 5 games on BYOND that are actually original. You don't happen to have any solid facts and sources to base this on, now do you? I base it on my experience using digitalBYOND and seeing that most other sources don't offer any better specs than they did. Being the multi-user system it is designed for, *nix handles these tasks without massive resource hogging, so the only difference would be in the scale/available resources, which is, like you mentioned, simply a matter of monetary issues. The issue isn't with the OS, but with BYOND. Though overall linux is just a pain in the rear to use, which doesn't help anybody anywhere ever times 3 plus 7 <.O | |
Im with Falacy on this one
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Falacy wrote:
Connection speed? First you should keep in mind that our primary server (which hosts the websites) and our BYOND servers are separated to ensure that one cannot conflict with the other. As far as actual speed goes, I've experienced no lag issues with it. Downloading a 3 MB file from the server from a Dutch web server (coming out as a connection between US and Europe) takes 4 seconds at 1.12 MB/s. We haven't actually done a "true" test yet but if you want to check your ping, go ahead and ping "byond.farawayhost.com". Storage space? For BYOND worlds storage space doesn't matter that much, so for now, we've decided on "unlimited" storage. That is, we'll likely talk with you once you've used 100 MB or so. Initially we didn't have a limit on RAM either, but that changed when we noticed a lot of RAM was being used by some of these games. | |
Lightplayer wrote:
Im with Falacy on this one Of course you are, because you just want stuff for free. I doubt BYOND Staff is going to come forward with free hosting, and I doubt anybody else will too. If you want easy hosting, pretty much all you've got on the market is Farawayhost. I believe there was also Zen Hosting, but that "company" is owned by Kanak - the same guy as mentioned in this post. | |
Falacy wrote:
I doubt this, or pretty much anything, could run off of true donations alone. I only mention this alternative as you did so in your initial posting, pointing it out as one of the options to get this working. I seriously doubt it would suffice, but I stated that already. Falacy wrote: And though I'm pretty sure it could/would mean more money for BYOND, it doesn't necessarily mean any for me. It would mean a lot more work and risk for BYOND as well though. Since the run of these free spots would be... massive and the potential monetary benefit unpredictable/unsecured. Which is why I made mention of the referral of BYOND memberships. That way, you'd hold the risk (which shouldn't be much at all, for the ruler of the world and universe ;p) and BYOND would see potential benefit gain rather fast, which would enable monetary flow. Falacy wrote: I didn't say it would be needed, I just said it wouldn't accomplish as much without one. I simply got the impression that this would be a key factor on why you are not undertaking this project by yourself in your initial posting. Falacy wrote: I base it on my experience using digitalBYOND and seeing that most other sources don't offer any better specs than they did. That's actually a bit harsh and not very representative. Even more so, since you said Slicehost is bad as well, when they have no whatsoever relationship to BYOND and can hardly be compared to digitalBYOND in either size or management. Falacy wrote: Though overall linux is just a pain in the rear to use I won't argue on that one, since this would massively derail the thread and is prone to end as flame-bait. | |
Android Data wrote:
If you want easy hosting, pretty much all you've got on the market is Farawayhost. I believe there was also Zen Hosting, but that "company" is owned by Kanak (...) Just to get kind of fair odds on 'advertising' here is my standard reply on people asking for hosting services around BYOND: As for paid hosting, Tiberath might recommend slicehost, which works even for non BYOND related hosting. If you want to go BYOND specific, I only know about Zen Enterprise Hosting, farawayhost and ATP Host. And I don't even get referrals out of that *looks sad*. | |
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
As for paid hosting, Tiberath might recommend slicehost, which works even for non BYOND related hosting. Except Slicehost makes you set up the stuff yourself, and it costs quite more. If you want to go BYOND specific, I only know about Zen Enterprise Hosting Ran by a guy who has been known to backstab clients in the past. farawayhost and ATP Host. I didn't know about ATP Hosting, but they did get their packages wrong: first, it's "Farawayhost" (no spaces), and secondly we don't have a limit on shared users. And whilst FAH is set out to make some money out of this, the money is likely to be used to improve our services (because frankly, you don't get much from BYOND hosting). | |
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
Android Data wrote: I signed up for faraway host(payed and everything, i'm pretty sure I emailed them too and never got a response, either.) and never got the login details :[. Anyway, you mmight want to try vpsland.com, they offer some great linux(and windows) based operations. Mine is a quad core CPU with 512 MB of ram, way more than I need(i'm only hosting 2 games on it) | |
Android Data wrote:
I didn't know about ATP Hosting, but they did get their packages wrong: first, it's "Farawayhost" (no spaces), and secondly we don't have a limit on shared users. My apologies, the spacing has been fixed. As for the shared users, it is an estimate as to how many people are hosting on one server. That is, how many ways CPU is split. If you'd be willing to provide a definite number, that'd be great. If not, the estimates will suffice. | |
Now you're saying you are, "more or less", but before you acted like you weren't.