Ter13 wrote:
We shouldn't even be talking about the EXE in this thread. Ter is on fire. | |
Back on topic, I really don't think much more can be said here that hasn't already been covered. BYOND has its limitations, but that's actually a much higher ceiling that a lot of people think.
I personally think that BYOND and DM is a much better option for new developers because it gets you acquainted with the development pipeline, programming, general game design strategies, ect before moving into "more professional" dev kits. My understanding of DM when I was young is what helped me move into more powerful languages like C++ and the lessons I learned in lower level languages helped me become a more productive programmer in DM as well. I would try out BYOND for the sake that it's very simple to get a game going in. We have our Game in a Day competitions, after all, the dev pipeline is really smooth. From there I would definitely recommend experimenting with other engines like Unity. I think the more development areas you're proficient in, the more effective of a game designer you become. It's not so much a DM vs Unity debate as it is a "what is going to teach me the most while I'm new to game development" debate and I personally think that's BYOND. | |
DM is one of those environments I find that you only come to appreciate after you've come back from a mainstream language/environment.
A lot of the people that go on about Unity/Unreal being a better option for serious gamedev aren't wrong, but the vast majority of the ones that say this here can barely cobble a project together in DM that actually works, much less one in the engine they are plugging. Take that for what you will. | |
Can you make the game run without BYOND installed? Yes.
Do you want an engine with more horsepower to it? Unity. Do you want an engine with a much easier development cycle? BYOND. | |
Unfortunately, we can't avoid talking about BYONDexe because you can't leave such a thing until the end when designing a game. Distribution is as much a part of the game development as UI, microtransactions, mechanics. All of which must be planned early in game development.
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BYONDexe's 'price' is irrelevant, last I checked Tom gave out keys to projects that looked promising for free.
Not to mention, if you can't create your own launcher, there is no way in hell you're going to effectively create a multiplayer game in Unity. RPC's or sockets regardless. | |
Lugia319 wrote:
Unfortunately, we can't avoid talking about BYONDexe because you can't leave such a thing until the end when designing a game. Yes... you can. Developers do this all the time. This isn't the corporate world where the entire pipeline needs to be mapped out months in advance, this is the indie realm where it's more than reasonable and in-fact, beneficial to make sure you have a game at least close to being ready for distribution before you start thinking about it. As long as you know when you go into development is that, "Hey, I'm gonna need BYONDexe to make this work." then that's it. Done. That's all the planning you need to do. It's not some daunting task that requires a meeting over. Get the game working then get it out there, it's that simple. | |
Hate to continue the seeming derailment of this topic, but $100 isn't much and was never official, that I can remember.
A lot of people seem to confuse game design with marketing here. LoL is designed to be marketed and a lot of the people who get into games like this think that's standard in game design. Not trying to start up another LoL debate, so I'm including Hearthstone in that example too. Games in the mainstream are there, mostly, because of marketing. They know how to market their game, sell their product. Game design isn't about selling the product, it's about making sure the product is something worth selling(if you're looking at it as a professional level). | |
To further the derailment, usually games have completely separate marketing and development teams. Obviously that doesn't work in this sort of environment, but saying that game design, development and marketing are all supposed to be done in tandem is ridiculous.
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Okay, let's try to stay on topic. This discussion really shouldn't be happening in this thread. I'd suggest taking it to a new thread if you really want to debate the nuances of game marketing and the development pipeline.
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Kats wrote:
Okay, let's try to stay on topic. This discussion really shouldn't be happening in this thread. I'd suggest taking it to a new thread if you really want to debate the nuances of game marketing and the development pipeline. Byond's engine is a flexible one, but I am not sure that it has sheer power such as other, more main-stay languages. Would I be correct in making this statement? The extent of how far one can go with Byond is up to what that person is trying to do. Byond can do a lot of things, but nobody is going to be making the next WoW (or whatever) on it because it isn't meant for things such as that. That is why other programming languages exist. Byond fulfills a purpose, but it doesn't fulfill EVERY purpose! Use the right tool for the job! :) | |
Thank you all for your help. Byond is indeed an amazing game engine. Thank you so much for your attention.
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Actually, no. You can't. This has been explained several times in Extra Credits and I can't be bothered to parrot what they say to you, so go look it up yourself. But the moral of the story is: If you're trying to get from point A to point B, it's more efficient to use a map than to guess and pray. This is literally the downfall of so many UI in BYOND games.
Okay, let's ignore the money cost. But then let's remember that BYOND doesn't have a good server-side/client-side processing split. And you have no power over this. Whereas in Unity, you can control what gets processed server-side and what gets process client-side. | |
Lugia319 wrote:
Actually, no. You can't. This has been explained several times in Extra Credits and I can't be bothered to parrot what they say to you, so go look it up yourself. But the moral of the story is: If you're trying to get from point A to point B, it's more efficient to use a map than to guess and pray. This is literally the downfall of so many UI in BYOND games. Except UI is directly linked to development and that wasn't the question of the thread, and regardless, no, you're still wrong. Extra Credits is often as wrong as he is correct, and I've seen the one that you're speaking of, and it's fundamentally flawed. A game developer should rarely have to think about marketing, they think about how does the game work, how is it built, how do the features interact. In a corporate world, there will be a separate Marketing team working around the development to effectively market the game. This isn't corporate, but even in that scenario the development and marketing are kept very separate, in this environment it's far more prudent to create a product, and afterwards think about the best way to market it. Why should a small, indie developer wonder about how to properly sell his product, before he even has a product? The chances of a finished product even existing are generally slim, especially compared to the corporate world, where it'll be pushed hard to get finished and thus marketing is something that doesn't require forethought, but rather can be done in tandem due to the size of the team handling it. | |
Extra credits offers an educated opinion. Are you in the developing scene? Do you have clients coming to you for advice? Not likely.
It's not just making a product, it's making the product easily accessible as well. You could have the best damn product but you sell it from atop a giant mountain. You're losing customers on that fact alone. Same deal here (this is a common issue with ports). Unity's standalone builder (for PC/webclient) has no barrier of entry. BYOND's does. Even if "It's given away if your game looks promising", the "if your game looks promising" is the barrier to entry. Who's the judge? The best games made with DM have to work really hard to escape the fact that they're tied to this website (and in turn, BYOND keys). With Unity, you can ignore that altogether. | |
Lugia, I'm really trying to be nice, but your attitude is really starting to bug me. You continue to try driving through a point that has no merit in Indie development on a topic that is only vaguely related to it. I think I speak for everyone here that when you go off on your "BYOND < Everything Else" rants, that it gives us a headache, to be frank. Its petty and childish.
Were here to discuss BYOND objectively as a viable development platform and undeniably that's a yes. BYOND has an extremely simple language with powerful tools to get brand new projects up and running in minutes. Its a high level language that teaches the core concepts of programming first, allowing developers seeking to advance their skills to move into other languages easier and learn even more. BYOND is not the end-all-be-all of game dev platforms. What it is is a powerful stepping stone that's not nearly as scary or daunting as Unity and languages like C# or C++ to the brand new developers. Period. | |
The difference between you and I is that I never bother trying to be nice. And honestly, I'm not sure anyone is even reading my posts. They just see "BYOND SUCKS" and say, "Lugia, you're being a tosser". Here's the objective list of stuff I've said (in this thread) that Unity has over BYOND
Unity has: 1. PC/webclient standalone built in (for free) 2. Server-side/client-side processing that you can control 3. No shenanigans of going through BYOND keys 4. Quality resources 5. Good community 6. Base language(s) is(are) marketable. BYOND has: 1. A simpler language... maybe | |
Do you have a game ready for distribution? If the answer is no, you shouldn't be worried about distribution.
Directed at a certain interloper in this forum that has no business being in Developer Help: Quit blaming BYOND for your inability to make something and make something.