ID:1953486
 
Which one do you prefer?

A battle system that units have HP/ATK/DEF... vars
or A battle system with kill chance percentages

I know that a player isn't going to notice the difference, but as developers which one do you prefer??
Players typically like to be able to figure out (through experience/feeling or straight number calculations) how many hits it takes to kill a monster with an attack. Randomness shouldn't be the deciding factor between life or death.

I haven't seen any games that use only random chance to determine whether an attack kills or not, so you should totally try it out and see for yourself what people think of it.
Randomness does not imply unpredictability. It's very much possible to get develop a system where things are statistically likely but still not certain, and in my opinion these sort of systems are much more interesting than at either extreme of the continuum.
HP is an abstraction, typically representing combat experience as well as hardiness. It tends to serve that purpose well when balanced properly. Rogue used HP, hit chance, and a damage roll to good effect.
I'd prefer using HP too in an rpg, but for strategy games with many units like total war what would you prefer??

Im thinking of using Armor instead of HP meaning that life of a player is increased by his equipment. Like if you were unarmed 1 succefull hit would kill you but since you have armor the strike is delivered to the armor.

For many units would HP systems work??
In response to Victorqr
I mean, it's almost like a successful franchise wasn't even built on the premise of a unit of multiple things having HP. Certainly not Yggdra Union or Advance Wars.
From experience under ss13, I can say that rng is not the way to go for combat. Maybe add a little bit, like a damage upper and damage lower, but anything more than that leads to unfun things like getting killed in 1 hit or getting killed because rng got unlucky and something that should take 5 hits to kill on avg taking 25.
There's nothing more infuriating than missing a 95% shot in XCOM then having a unit die the next move.
Just because one game implemented randomness poorly--and it's my understanding that SS13 implemented most things poorly--doesn't mean it's impossible to do. I wouldn't be surprised if SS13 just went with a uniform distribution for their attacks, meaning they just pulled straight from the PRNG without transforming the values at all, resulting in you being equally-likely to do very well, very poorly, and average. Other distributions would be much more interesting.

As for a 95% shot, you have to keep in mind that 95% is not 100%. There's still a 1-in-20 chance you'll miss, which is pretty big as far as I'm concerned: I wouldn't eat something if there was a 1-in-20 chance of me dying from it.
In response to Popisfizzy
Risk averse activities in games are much less impacting, especially on a micro scale. With respawning and minor penalties, what's a death here or there for the thrill of the game? But what if you had a 1 in 20 chance of dying, and when you died your character was gone forever, then you probably wouldn't see as much fighting in your game. On the other hand, you've completely disincentivized fighting. So it's a trade off.
it's my understanding that SS13 implemented most things poorly

This kind of assumption is unproductive.

Go home.
Well heck, I think even ExAdv1 would cop to most of the base code in SS13 being poorly implemented in the beginning. But most of the better-known builds have seen vast improvement since then.
I always align with a critical organ system. Health is dependent on your actual systems being intact. Get shot in the leg and it impairs that leg and you can bleed out, etc.
By tying it to critical organs instead of HP or chance, you get that feeling of knowing how to stop an enemy without an exact number of hit points or "best 3 out of 10".
Not many games do this, though, with Soldier of Fortune: Double Helix and Arma games being all that comes to mind.
In response to MrStonedOne
MrStonedOne wrote:
This kind of assumption is unproductive.

Go home.

But clearly the assumption "I don't like how this one game implemented something so they're all bad" is a much more enlightened and productive opinion. Thank you for the clarification.

I think I will go, because every time I come back to this website I'm reminded of the unfettered and self-righteous knobheads that drove me to leave in the first place.
In response to Popisfizzy
It's okay Pop, I know how you feel.
Stay for us good ones, though! :)
In response to AERProductions
AERProductions wrote:
I always align with a critical organ system. Health is dependent on your actual systems being intact. Get shot in the leg and it impairs that leg and you can bleed out, etc.
By tying it to critical organs instead of HP or chance, you get that feeling of knowing how to stop an enemy without an exact number of hit points or "best 3 out of 10".
Not many games do this, though, with Soldier of Fortune: Double Helix and Arma games being all that comes to mind.

This has some merit if it's done well, but IMO for most games it's too much work and hard to handle properly--especially because it also applies to you just as much as to the enemy.

Dwarf Fortress is a good example of a game where the organ system is done pretty well. It also proves your dwarves are every bit as fragile as the goblins who come marching in.
Dwarf Fortress is a good example of a game where the organ system is done pretty well. It also proves your dwarves are every bit as fragile as the goblins who come marching in.

It also results in some very... Odd occurrences. I once had a Bronze Titan invade. Unfortunately, Bronze titans lack blood, hearts, and brains. In Dwarf Fortress, damage to the heart, brain, or fatal loss of blood is the only way that things die from injury. Otherwise, there's drowning, being descintigrated by magma or a bottomless pit, and the odd ionization caused by being under a drawbridge at the wrong time.

TL;DR: After my dwarves ran out of limbs to hack off of the titan, they proceeded to poke whatever sharp things they could into the limbless, headless torso of the bronze titan for several years. Eventually, I had to cordon off that entire part of my fortress into a borough, forbid my military from entering it, and then pump magma into the corridor to put it down for good.
In response to Popisfizzy
Popisfizzy wrote:
But clearly the assumption "I don't like how this one game implemented something so they're all bad" is a much more enlightened and productive opinion. Thank you for the clarification.

Except that isn't what I said. I spoke from experience in game design, and I told you what i found, and what game i figured it out with, only for you to turn around and say to me "Oh i heard your game is shit, so you guys probably did it shittaly"

I think I will go, because every time I come back to this website I'm reminded of the unfettered and self-righteous knobheads that drove me to leave in the first place.

I think the really sad part, is that you are gonna walk out of this conversation thinking you were in the right, and you aren't. You came out guns blaring with ad-homs directed at me, ss13, and all ss13 devs, and you think I'm the one who is self-righteous? Fuck off
Oh, don't worry, I'm not going to leave yet. See, you've piqued my curiosity; specifically, I'm wondering which delusion, exactly, you are operating under.

(1) That I care enough about you as an individual to be aware that you are an SS13 developer, despite having never known of you prior to this conversation.
(2) That I care enough about SS13--a game I played no more than twice back when I was a regular here--to have kept up with it to know that you are a developer on it.
(3) That you have some Hideo Kojima-like association with the game that you are practically synonymous with it so that knowing of SS13 implies knowing of you.
(4) That, much like I was born knowing to duck when something is thrown at me, that I was born knowing your affiliation with a game I don't play.

Because from my perspective, you seem to be operating under one or more of these assumptions. And trust me when I say that, quite unfortunately for you, none of them are the least bit true. When I quit circa 2012, it had only been in the past couple years that Hobnob decompiled the SS13 source and people started updating it, and that was the most I knew about it. SS13 is a game I did not care about then and I still do not care about now, and for most of the time I'd spent on BYOND back when I was a regular, my impression of Space Station 13 was that, much like if David had been made out of mashed potatoes instead of marble, there was an ounce of brilliance betrayed by a pound of poor choices.

So, to make it plain: until this post that I am replying to now, I had (a) no idea that you were a developer of SS13, and (b) that the codebase of SS13 had improved appreciably since I was last aware of it. In other words, my """ad-homs""" were aside remarks made out of ignorance of a topic I know little about except past impressions, so ~~my most humble apologies~~ for having fractured your fragile ego.

But yes, obviously I was in the wrong for having incensed at having been immediately attacked for a quick remark by someone who just knows in their heart they are the correct and superior one without making a modicum of effort to figure out the other person knows and doesn't know, and because of this I am truly the one who is best characterized with "self-righteous".

So honestly, you can fuck off you sniveling, crumpled-up cockwad. You are, now that your positions is clear, even more the arrogant sort of idiot that helped push me away from this self-fellating slug of a community.

I spoke from experience in game design

I made the assumption that you were speaking as someone who played a game. Mind, an assumption that I feel is entirely-justified considering that players outnumber devs massively here and your profile at a quick glance (i.e., without looking at your forum posts) has no indication that you are nothing other than a player, not a dev.

Unfortunately, that makes things all the worse for you. Now instead of, "I had a bad experience with this implementation of this design, therefore this design is wrong" your post now reads as, "I made a bad implementation of this design, therefore this design is wrong", because

but anything more than that leads to unfun things like getting killed in 1 hit or getting killed because rng got unlucky and something that should take 5 hits to kill on avg taking 25.

says nothing more than "I made something that wasn't fun and boy let me tell you about how not fun it was." It also doesn't bode well for your "game design" ability that you couldn't or can't figure out how to balance it so that it is fun.

And, you see, that is why I'm going to walk out of this conversation thinking I'm right: because you are nothing more than a man with baseless sense of superiority making stupid, ill-founded assumptions about multiple things.

You twat.

[Edit]

And yes, the quoted text is perfectly capable of being balanced if you're the least bit creative.
Victorqr wrote:
A battle system that units have HP/ATK/DEF... vars
or A battle system with kill chance percentages

What exactly are you getting at with this? A system where all attacks either instantly kill or don't do anything vs. a system where damage meters build up until you die?

Instant-kill things tend to be centered around mechanical skill. So my suggestion is not to do it in an RPG, where mechanical skills tend to be non-factors. Bushido, for example, has instant-kill abilities AND health. Instant-kills require timing and trickiness. Otherwise you just try to get simple strikes until they die.

So yeah, there is no better or worse system. It's entirely dependent on the type of game it is, and the type of game you want to make.

PS: RPGs, going all the way back to DND, are rife with RNG that decides whether you win or lose. It's worked for 30 years, it can work for you too.

PPS: Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't XCOM's infamous "95%" actually misleading? The internal figure was not 95% at all or something? When this game was still a thing I know this was on all the forums, and I watched friends miss 95% after 95% over and over.
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