One of the main purposes behind having an online game, or even the internet in general, was to share experiences with people across the world. However a common issue among games nowadays is that the "shared experience" is something people really don't care about.
Consider this. In League of Legends, support is the least favored role. This is evident in how rarely you see people call "support" or "fill" ( for those who don't play, "fill" basically means "I'll play whatever role is remaining after everyone else chooses a role" ). There are multiple reasons why support has been lame over the years, but I'm only going to focus on two which are:
- It is the only role where you are expected to always make sacrifices for everyone on your team
- It is the only role where you spend the first third of the game relying on one other person to ensure the success of your laning phase
All of the other roles and lanes are more self-centered. Top lane is usually referred to as the "island" where two players are sort of secluded from all the other action and can just focus on outplaying their one opponent. Mid is focused on one-vs-one as well, with a little bit of roaming to assist other lanes when possible. The jungler has interaction with the lanes as well, but still needs time to clear his camps and ward the map so he has more "alone time" than the support. And even though ADCs don't get to lane alone, they're like the youngest child in a family. They're spoiled and get all the attention. In an ideal game, everyone sacrifices themselves for the ADC, gives the ADC the kills and farm, and protects them to the best of their ability during team fights so they can "carry" the game, so it ends up being a very self-centered role.
The support on the other hand pretty much always has to rely on someone else to get a particular job done. They can't secure dragon and Baron because they don't have Smite. They can't secure kills because they don't have enough damage. They can't split push because their wave clear is non-existent. They can't buy items because they aren't allowed to farm and rely on assist gold. Now the player is in a situation where it's no longer about themselves, it's about "sharing". You "share" the lane. You "share" the gold. You "share" the XP. It's about working together as opposed to working alone.
And being together ( or "connected" ) is what the internet and online experiences are supposed to be about. Why is it then that the role in League that embodies that idea the most is the least popular? Even after Rito went out of their way to introduce better support items and more innovative support champions, the role has failed to muster the same amount of appeal as the others. And this isn't just a League issue.
My time in WoW was somewhat brief but I did roll multiple characters and did my fair share of running through dungeons and fighting in BGs. It's a mirror image of League. Communication suffers. The most popular roles are the ones that deal damage, with tanks and healers being more rare. You can run through a dungeon ( which is what at the earlier levels, 20-25 minutes? ) and no one will say a thing outside of "GG" once it's all over. People will fight over loot or even take things they can't equip, showing complete disregard for other members in the party. Very seldom do you get into a group where the people are social and friendly and behave as though they actually enjoy sharing the experience with others.
But far too often, I feel like I'm playing with 4 AI characters. These people I'm playing with have no personality, would prefer not to talk, do things to intentionally screw the game up, and are just in it for themselves. This forces us as gamers to ask ourselves "Why are we even here?" If I wanted to play alone or with a party of heroes being controlled by the computer, I could've just stayed offline and played Dragon Quest. MMORPGs are supposed to be these worlds filled with a bunch of people to talk and interact with, a place where you can make friends you would've never encountered otherwise, a realm where you work together to achieve total victory! But in reality, it's a place where no one wants to hold a conversation with you. A place where PvP is more glorified than dungeons ( in other words, people find defeating each other more fulfilling than cooperation ). These are online experiences in which many people are teaming up by necessity rather than by interest ( everyone would just be soloing the dungeons if it wasn't for the fact that the game designers make the mobs so strong they required a team of 5 players to take down ).
I'm sure most of you have seen me cite Proelium as one of the best games on the site, and thinking back on it now, I don't even think I enjoyed it because it had like, the best game play in the world. What made the experience so great was that everyone knew everyone. Everyone had personality and talked to each other. Everyone was fine with playing different roles ( except for a few people, I think HOPLITE was like strictly a Knight and SpSpiff played Warlock every chance he got ) and helping where they were needed. Victories were impactful because people weren't bitching at each other for sucking and instead most games, win or lose, involved true cooperation ( i.e. someone switching to Healer to cure infection or someone going Necro when there were clusters of corpses on the ground ). Of course you'd have the occasional "toxic" remark about someone spamming rockets as Pyro and calling it "cheap" but overall, the "connected" feeling was much stronger in Proelium than what I find in League.
It seems like here in 2015 everything is focused on the individual. Most montages on the internet are videos highlighting the success of one player as opposed to a team as a whole. There are even League players now who are mad at the fact that League has turned into a game that revolves less around out-playing your opponent 1v1 like it did during its early years and is now a game that emphasizes communication and constantly doing things to help your teammates. I played a few games earlier and noticed that my chances of winning the game are higher when I'm mid lane and get off successful roams top and bot ( even if I lose mid lane ) and my chances of losing the game are higher when I win lane but am unable to somehow channel my success into the rest of the team. Apparently Riot wants things to be more connected as well. Why else would they put Rift Herald into the game? If anything, it was to give top laner a purpose outside of TPing bottom to contest dragon because other than that they weren't really doing anything until mid game when everyone is grouped.
But yeah, seems like we go into online games with a single-player mindset which is definitely contributing to the amount of toxicity and forgettable experiences we see today.
ID:1986109
 Nov 20 2015, 12:41 pm (Edited on Nov 20 2015, 12:47 pm)
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Nov 20 2015, 12:52 pm
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Somepotato
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You've got to remember that League's community is very toxic.
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Lots and lots of examples and analogies are wrong in this, but the general concept is correct.
We don't play multiplayer to have fun with friends anymore, it's all about showing your friends that you're the best. It's a shame. | |
Rushnut wrote:
Lots and lots of examples and analogies are wrong in this, but the general concept is correct. can you point them out so we can argue about it for the next few days | |
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Rushnut wrote: I tried to take a screenshot of your whole post but it didn't quite work, too big. First time for everything. (^: | |
Rushnut wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote: in other words i was right about everything like i always have been and always will be, ggwp :^) | |
I'll give you a 6.5/10 for effort, but you didn't stick the landing. See me after class
___ / \ < o o | |
thats not what your mom said when i landed in her.
\ \ |) /\ | / \ | / \ | / \ | | |) | / / [edit] wtf the face looked fine when i was typing it and now its ruined, im done afk [edit 2] had to take a screenshot, never give up never surrender  | |
No one likes support in LoL because the game is terribly designed.
When I play support in DotA 2, I'm the one making all the plays. I'm the most active player in the game until at least half way through it. I'm the one my team depends on to get through that first 15 minutes. Even late game, I almost always have an ability that can make or break a team fight. I'm considered just as vital and important to my team as a carry, and without me my teams chances of winning drastically drop. It's not that people hate playing supports. It's that people hate playing dead weights that they're forced to take due to how the game is designed. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
No one likes support in LoL because the game is terribly designed. That still doesn't change the fact that in both games support is the least desired role. Notice how all players agree wards are important, but virtually no one purchases them in low MMR, and even when you climb, it's usually just one player purchasing them. Against Riki, everyone knows buying Dust is essential, but they won't buy it themselves even though it's a cheap item that will ensure Riki doesn't snowball. They'll wait for the Shadow Shaman or the Disruptor to purchase it. And God forbid you have a Slardar on your team - absolutely nothing will be purchased and everyone will just rely entirely on Slardar pressing R on Riki. That's how allergic people are to support. It took a 6 million dollar Echo Slam just to see a surge in Earthshaker's popularity. What is Earthshaker? A support. Everyone knows how impactful supports are, but they'd still rather play a mid lane ganker or a safelane hard carry. Out of the top 10 heroes picked this month, only one of them is a support ( 2 if you're one of the few people who consider WR a support ). http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/played So it's not even the viability of supports that keeps them from being played. Even in Dota 2, a game that differs from League in so many ways, people are still less attracted to the "buy wards, buy and upgrade the courier, sacrifice yourself for your teammates, don't take any kills or farm" playstyle. I mean how many times have we seen the impact a Rubick can have on a game. He's halfway down the list! RUBICK OF ALL HEROES. He's fun to play and has huge potential to turn a game around. I've been like 0-4 before on Rubick and 3 levels behind and mid game I'm still able to steal one ability and be just as crucial in the team fight as everyone else was. So why is he lower on the list than say Pudge, a hero I rarely ever see anyone do very good on? People hate the support role so much they would rather play Pudge and miss hooks for 30 minutes than pick Rubick and actually be an asset to the team. | |
The reason no one buys wards at low skill levels is because they're bad. At low skill levels no one counters Riki because they are bad. No one buys smoke because they are bad.
There is a reason these people are in the low skill leveled brackets. It's because they're bad and do bad things, like not buying wards. At higher skill levels, you always have people warding, dewarding, buying smokes, dust (if needed) and various support oriented items. You'll also always find at least 1-2 people per team that pick a more support oriented hero. Likewise, it's not uncommon for people to change how they play if part way into the game they find the team is lacking something (a carry Windrunner might decide to go support because they need it more than another carry). Your problem is this, you are judging the entire playerbase based on the least skilled players. They are bad and will play badly (and can play badly and win). You can't really judge based on how often heroes are picked either (unless you're going to split it into skill brackets). Because most players are bad, and they'll pick whatever they saw a good player pick without understanding why. http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta Is a much more accurate measurement of how often heroes are picked. Excluding blatantly broken heroes who need nerfs, you'll see plenty of support heroes at high MMR being picked, while at low MMR you'll find a mishmash of whatever people feel like playing (depending on how you classify heroes, 3 to 5 of the top 10 heroes at high MMR are support heroes while low MMR has 2 in the top 10). Support is not an inherently unfun role to play. You're just playing a game that makes the role unfun to play. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
Your problem is this, you are judging the entire playerbase based on the least skilled players. They are bad and will play badly (and can play badly and win). I been sayin' this to him for weeks but he just ain't get it. He just ain't get it man. He just ain't get it. To elaborate, when I say you're gold, it's not me trying to insult you (Ok maybe a little), it's more the fact that until you see the game being played as it's supposed to be played, you can't make judgements on it. Gold isn't good enough for you to form meaningful opinions of the game. At a minimum I'd say mid Plat, or low Diamond. | |
And you just based the entire player base on the most skilled players. Which make up 2% of the entire player base. The other 98% do exactly as I described.
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The coach of the Korean Samsung teams ( who led them a 2014 Worlds victory BTW ) was in Silver. Tell me again about how meaningful opinions of the game can only be formed at mid Plat and low Diamond.
Then again, Korean Silver is the equivalent of EU Diamond, correct? It makes sense now. #Rekt. | |
I said YOU can't make judgements, not that people who actually know what they're talking about can't.
#counterRekt | |
Ok let's broaden the discussion then. It's apparent both of you want to take 2% of the player base in both League and Dota 2 and make conclusions based off that, so let's examine why the same behaviors exist in other games. Why do people try so hard to be good AWPers in Counter-Strike? This is essentially the equivalent of mid laners in League. The AWP role is a highly skilled role and is constantly glorified through players like kennyS ( the same way Faker is glorified in his mid lane prowess in League ).
This leads players in ranked play to run around with AWPs when they should be buying other weapons. Some rounds you get 3 wannabe kennyS players purchasing AWPs then getting killed and having the AWPs picked up by the enemy team and on a map like Dust 2, it's pretty much rest in pepperonis at that point if multiple people who actually can use an AWP gets a hold of one. But the question is why? Why is the flashy, one-shot kill gun the one people admire so much? Why is no-scoping more important to people than actually winning the game? There are probably more people right now looking up tutorials on how to use an AWP than how to throw grenades with the latter being far more important because surprise! Can't use an AWP if you get shot while moving because there was no smoke cover! And you can't say "because all the other weapons suck". The AWP is actually a rather unreliable weapon in a lot of scenarios, which is why it takes someone of kennyS's level of mastery to pull it off. In general, the main two weapons everyone is advised to use is the AK47 and M4A1. People would rather use an AWP and risk being useless that round than just buy one of the two more reliable rifles just so they can be the "playmaker". As I said before, this isn't just a behavior found in MOBAs, this exists everywhere. In each and every game you go to, everyone is obsessed with KDA and individual performance. It has nothing to do with whether something is fun or not or viable or not. It's the fact the average player would rather have a score of 10 kills and 0 deaths and lose the round, than 0 kills and 10 deaths but win the round. People don't play to win or to share experiences anymore with other players. It's all become one big contest to see who can have the highest kill count. This is why you see so many people raging and going AFK in MOBAs after dying 2 or 3 times because in their mind, if they didn't do well PERSONALLY, there's no reason to keep continuing. Whereas anyone with common sense would know that just because you do bad PERSONALLY doesn't mean your team won't do well as a WHOLE, but you don't care about the team as a WHOLE when you're a self-centered wannabe professional. I agree that the League role of support is worse compared to Dota 2 and have even written walls of text in the League forums detailing how bad it is in comparison. However, even if they were to improve the role to the point where it was on par with Dota 2 supports, it would still be the least played role. I've played more MOBAs than I can count, and in each and every community, the most popular heroes were always the high damage, high mobility, snowball "carry' characters that "make the plays". Even in the Gigantic alpha and beta test I'm apart of right now, the most popular heroes right now are Tripp ( a fast moving, high damage assassin ) and Lord Knossos ( also a high damage hero, just not as fast as Tripp ) and in most matches, it's these two heroes that come out with the highest kill counts. My favorite is Xenobia, and I get to play her very often. Why? Because she's not designed to be a burst damage carry, so people aren't picking her, which means I get to. | |
I already said I agree with you, and your last paragraph was effectively a glorified version of what I said
'We don't play multiplayer to have fun with friends anymore, it's all about showing your friends that you're the best. It's a shame.' Just your League analogies are wrong. And I understand what you're saying by the whole 2% thing, but that's just how it is. If you're doing it wrong, you're still doing it wrong. Doesn't matter if you're a part of the 98% that's doing it wrong, it's still wrong, lol. If you weren't doing it wrong, you'd be in that 2%, and maybe the 2% would grow. | |
Rushnut wrote:
Just your League analogies are wrong. And I understand what you're saying by the whole 2% thing, but that's just how it is. If you're doing it wrong, you're still doing it wrong. Doesn't matter if you're a part of the 98% that's doing it wrong, it's still wrong, lol. If you weren't doing it wrong, you'd be in that 2%, and maybe the 2% would grow. I'm pointing out that in a discussion about what the majority of players do, it's useless to mention 2% of any given community. The thread was about why the average player ( i.e. not 5k-6k MMR in dota 2 ) doesn't want to support, or doesn't want to be a healer or tank in WoW dungeons, or doesn't want to buy the consistent weapons in CS:GO. Even in Dota 2, a game where supports pack a heavier punch, only the top 2% is willing to take the role which is why he had to switch the trend stats and point towards higher MMR players. The fact is, as we speak, the vast majority of players in Dota 2 right now are not playing supports, and even less of them actually main supports, which means next game they'll probably lock in a mid laner or carry again, which means they were playing support out of necessity and not out of interest. Similar to the running through a dungeon as a party vs running it solo dilemma. People only do it because they have to, not necessarily because they want to. | |