ID:2214813
 
This is in response to: [Link]

Because BYOND interfaces suck, normal output sucks, etc.

HTML/CSS + JS = able to create much better interfaces.

If BYOND were to upgrade from using the 2007 Windows browser control to the modern Windows browser control(IE11, EdgeHTML), it would support so much more. Hell, a *lot* of BYOND issues could be solved by upgrading from DX9 and to the EHTML browser controls - speed of text manipulation, speed of image manipulation, sp.. basically, it would allow client-side processing to be done efficiently without having to change DreamSeeker itself, extensively.

Yes, they would be workarounds for inherent problems, but that's better than nothing.

The DX9 upgrade would also allow a lot of features that are currently requested and deemed 'infeasible' to go through without a hitch.

You know, the DX9 not supporting transparency? That's not entirely true. DX9 supports simulated transparency for controls, but you don't even use DX Controls for the components of DreamSeeker. You use AdvControls and Windows Dialogs. That's a horrible idea. You're basically adding two extra DLLS where you have DX that can do everything for you. And in 2011, there was a version of DX released that *does* support transparency. Not only does it support transparency, it's faster on any modern graphics card. It's faster in general for anyone using WIndows 10. It's a *better* interface/library.

Do you realize how many issues BYOND has, simply because it refuses to modernize? And I don't even understand why it has a hard time modernizing - the upgraded interfaces are pretty much backward compatible, they'd just require a few small changes to the code base, unless the code base is horribly designed.

I apologize if this post breaks any rules, I corrected a few statements that were obviously breaking rules - they weren't exactly 'constructive' critiques. If you see any others, please notify me and I'll correct them(or correct them yourself, whatever.)

Yeah, this could be a feature request. But from what I've seen, you dismiss far too many feature requests without adequate reasoning. You should try to actually discuss the feature request with the person requesting said feature, so that everyone can see it and learn from it, and possibly put their own thoughts in. Maybe if you took more community feedback on *how* things were implemented(not just what gets implemented), you'd get more benefit from your updates.
BYOND needs to be modernized. All this web client crap was a complete waste of time. The few people who were using it left already due to preformance issues.

Modernize what we have and work on what BYOND does best.
It's not DirectX that has a transparency problem; it's the Windows controls. DirectX is only being used for drawimg the map, not for drawing controls.
What is the plan for BYOND going forward? To put it simply, I've been worried for a long time now. What is your goal that you are trying to meet by years end?
That's exactly what I said, Lummox. Why are you using Windows Controls to draw, instead of DX? DX has the same capabilities.
Simply put, Windows controls are used because that's what was available when BYOND 4.0 was implemented. And most of the code was already in use in some form or another, with the 4.0 stuff really just adding a way to interact with those controls.
Do you intend on ever updating that? That's my main question.
I mean, I guess there isn't much reason to address those that worry about the engines direction. >_>
I didn't throw in a longer reply until now because I wanted to digest more of this.

It's hard to give a proper response to these sorts of posts, because frequently a long "You should be using toolchains X, Y, Z" rant comes with unrealistic notions of what it would take to implement them and the difficulties of stepping away from toolchains A, B, and C that have flaws but work. But that's not to say I disagree with any of those points.

Regarding the browser stuff, you mentioned upgrading from a 2007 browser control to a newer one. The browser control has actually existed since long before that, and hasn't changed--even now. And I don't mean on BYOND's end, but I mean literally Microsoft hasn't developed anything new. There's nothing new to move to in that chain. The obvious choice, and one that has come up elsewhere, is to move to CEF. That's still in the cards and it's been more and more on my mind lately.

The bit about AdvControls doesn't make sense to me, but I think that's because you're making an assumption about the controls that isn't correct. BYOND just uses garden-variety Windows controls, many of which have been hooked to provide extra functionality. I'd be quite interested in moving to a more modern set of controls, if I felt it would be kept up to date and it offered a lot more flexibility.

So anyway, about modernizing: I don't refuse to modernize anything; I quite want to. The problem I run into is that switching from tool A to tool X is not an easy thing. When projects are big by their nature, they tend to be put off as long as possible because time spent working on them is time not spent working on other features and/or fixes. However, and this bears repeating, the webclient really is quite advanced and allows for incredible degrees of customization, simply by its nature.

One of the things I would like to do--and this ties into the CEF thing which puts an even bigger importance on that project--is to create a simple distributable webclient-DS that can make use of webclient capabilities but is all encapsulated in one app.

Anyway, the point is all the modernization stuff you mentioned is on the table. What it comes down to is finding a good point to get moving on one of those big projects. It must be recognized that none of those changes are trivial, and would take a lot of time. I'm in a much better position now to do that kind of thing when the right time comes, I think.
Thanks for the follow-up response. Sorry for being rude, I just thought I was being ignored.

I'm quite worried about BYOND and I don't say the things I do in a negative light. I really wish BYOND could compete with more modern engines and I hope that in the future there is a way to make it a possibility.
In response to Lavenblade
Have some faith in our Lord and savior, Lummox Christ.
In response to Lavenblade
Lavenblade wrote:
Thanks for the follow-up response. Sorry for being rude, I just thought I was being ignored.

I'm quite worried about BYOND and I don't say the things I do in a negative light. I really wish BYOND could compete with more modern engines and I hope that in the future there is a way to make it a possibility.

Don't worry about BYOND. We'll be here for a number of years to come, I'm sure. I'm pretty optimistic for BYOND's future. Especially with having someone competent at the helm now.
In response to Lavenblade
Lavenblade wrote:
BYOND needs to be modernized. All this web client crap was a complete waste of time. The few people who were using it left already due to preformance issues.

Modernize what we have and work on what BYOND does best.

This is basically my entire opinion on where BYOND is at.
BYOND just needs better games, the engine is fine and can only improve.
No one's going to mention the shots fired at dear ol' Tom?
In response to Kozuma3
Kozuma3 wrote:
BYOND just needs better games, the engine is fine and can only improve.



Facts! BYOND can't make every type of game out there.

But it can still make very high quality games. Developers here just like to use the engine as a scapegoat for their own failures. I don't think I've seen any developer who condemns byond make anything of quality outside of the site. (there are some promising games, though. But i'll have to play it to see)
Facts! BYOND can't make every type of game out there

Agree with this, but at the same time, the engine is outdated and could only become much more capable from modernization.

At the day's end though, you are using lemons to make lemonade or you aren't.
I think the engine is fine as in the direction it's heading is the right direction. I also think that the website could use a complete overhaul which would make even more sense since the engine changed ownership. Believe it or not people do care about what they see immediately when they go to the site for the first time. Steam is beautiful, BYOND is quite generic looking. I'm sure some people on BYOND would donate to Lummox to hire someone and/or help Lummox do it themselves.

Severed World's site, Lavenblade's site. They are both awesome and fun and make me want to see whats next. The engine is for the developers and it seems like 100% of the effort is going into the engine when some effort should be going into what drives the players. BYOND wouldn't have to make that much money to hire some game developers to make some decent games to drive in a flow of new BYOND fans.

We shouldn't have to bring our game offsite to have a chance at a successful game when BYOND is completely capable of becoming a modern game engine/forum/site that caters to all different types of gamers.
+ 1000 for basic resolution support.

As far as performance, I think a lot of that comes from programmers simply not understanding the way the software works. I manage to get a great deal of performance from games minus the odd bug here and there.

There is a huge difference in what "should" work in theory, and what actually works in "reality" that many devs here don't seem to understand. I think once that is understood people can make really decent games.



Programming Aides

If you're going to refer people to the thousands of libs and demos, then perhaps sorting them out (or allowing someone else to do this on your behalf) would be a great step in the right direction.

People nowadays do not like to read and calling them lazy when there are less time consuming and more interesting learning aids is actually what's lazy. The internet is a visual tool-- so consider video tutorials or something along those lines. People will be more receptive to them, which in turn will cause an increase in activity and game development.


Community Improvement

There's a very small group of people inadvertently strangling the livelihood of the site by being biased against anything anime related, which is directly at odds with the very thing keeping you alive at the moment.

Fact is you have a certain demographic of people this website caters to. Anime games which are being so vehemently attacked are essentially the only thing keeping a steady stream of people coming here. None of the "elite" devs are sticking around, opting to move on.

The only way for you to shake that "anime game" stigma is to either have developers make games (and host them long term) that players here actually want to play, or to embrace it then do option 1.

The problem is....

I've never , to date, seen any of the "leaders" of this community denounce this behavior publicly unless it's coming from someone who is considered outside of the "accepted"--then that person is basically ostracized. It's not about me being "bullied" because frankly I haven't really worried about much coming from folks here for a long time BUT--

An exclusive community isn't working. You guys have tried hostility and out right social ostracization and nothing has changed. No games are being developed that have seen the light of day or made any sort of impact to the community.

People will say I'm bringing up old shit, but it's important for one reason. You exclude people who might stick around otherwise when they see your behavior.

In short, you guys are often your own worst enemies with things you say and do. It doesn't come across as professional--at all. If you look at places like Unity and Steam, they don't have anything close to the level of toxicity this community allows for.

I'm 100% sure this will ruffle feathers, but in the long run that's not my concern. You need to know what areas you are failing at in order to improve do you not?

Ironically this is one of the simplest things to fix. Build accountability into your website so that people will think twice about being idiots. This basically means allowing others to see what crappy actions, comments and such they've said, or perhaps some kind of karma system as well.

I can't tell you how many people I've met or introduced into this community who then turn right back around and leave--and these aren't kids. These are serious game devs who see the potential, but leave because frankly its often not worth it on their part when there are better options for making games with less hassle (development and community wise). In short, shooting yourselves in the foot so to speak.

Improving Your Cash Flow
Also, I know it's been shot down many times but, including hosting services with memberships would vastly improve the willingness of people to buy memberships, which in turn gives you revenue.

If a member could host at least 1 game of their choosing in conjunction with your membership, you'd see a huge increase in activity on the website since hosting is a major deterrent for an active website. This would also solve the problem of membership being worth more.

You could also then tie in maybe the ability to host more than 1 game on a key by offering different levels of memberships. For instance, year long memberships include the ability to host up to 3 games. (Just to be clear, I'm not saying restrict the ability to host games.)

I'm aware that this would require a lot of time and effort, so I understand if it's not feasible or even an option--but this is a bit of forward thinking on my part.

This has been done to great effect on other websites similiar to BYOND like RoBlox. (Yes these games look like shit, but devs are easily making thousands of dollars a month making them so...--results matter most)

Less Control--allow BYond to Grow or it WILL die.
I really feel that, as a whole, there is this mindset that the community has to be "controlled" and because of that, you are inherently limiting yourself.

You either have a influx of people or you don't-- but I think right now the reason you don't is because there are a lot of notions about exercising control over your current system that really keeps byond from growing into BYOND.

One huge example of it is the missing ability to create an EXE file for your games.

If promotion and community involvement is an issue, making an EXE option built into Dream Maker would be the perfect way to remedy that problem.

Put a splash screen on all the games the EXE generator option uses, and that's that--bam as your games spread across the net, for better or worse, you gain promotion and people might visit. Those people might in turn contribute, as long as they aren't met with ignorance and malice.

You could also tie THAT into the membership, disabling the EXE option unless the user has a paid membership.

Pager Degradation

Finally, degrading the graphics when the pager is turned off --weird to say the least.

I realize the intent behind it, but it's a weird way of trying to get people to use a pager that suffers from memory leaks sometimes.
In response to Avidanimefan
Avidanimefan wrote:
Pager Degradation

Finally, degrading the graphics when the pager is turned off --weird to say the least.

I realize the intent behind it, but it's a weird way of trying to get people to use a pager that suffers from memory leaks sometimes.

What? This isn't a thing.
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