[NOTE: I would prefer if only people at least vaguely familiar with RetroQuest answer this thread. I'm plenty familiar with both the historical and fantasy conceptions of bards out there, and I know what they can do in other games. What I'm looking for is things that would translate well into my game.]
Okay, I decided to put bards into RetroQuest, much to Jowy's delight... but this presents a problem. Thieves thieve, wizards wiz, warriors war, but what, exactly, do bards do?
I'm of two minds here:
One is the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) school of thought... simply run with the idea that a bard is going to know a little bit of everything, and give them a Luck based bonus that is applied to fighting, thieving, and magic, making them better at stealing than warriors and better magic than thieves, but not as good at anything as the class which specializes in that area.
The other is the MIRACLE (Making It Ridiculous And Complicated, Lexy? Exactly!) school of thought... adding a whole new system for bards to be good at. What I have for solid ideas here is this: a new type of item, musical instrument, which can be equipped and used to play songs that have some effect on the game. I'm a little bit leery of "magic songs," especially if they do nothing but replicate existing magic spells... I don't want my game to have wizards and bards, the other wizards.
What I'm thinking is this: different types of songs will inspire different ends in combat. You play a song, then for X turns afterward, that song takes affect. Play a rousing battle march, and for the song's duration, your side gets combat bonuses. Play a peaceful song, and during the affected time, neither side can attack. Sound the retreat, and your side gets a bonus to flee.
Only one song can take affect at a time, so competing bards would drown each other out, the winner's effectiveness being lessened by the loser's, whose song would not be felt at all.
Obviously, this sort of ability would take on whole new dimensions when I add some sort of grouping and emphasize the team-vs-team aspect of it.
Anyways, what does everyone think about that two ideas, and any others they may have?
ID:265118
 May 13 2002, 7:35 am
|
|
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
The other is the MIRACLE (Making It Ridiculous And Complicated, Lexy? Exactly!) school of thought... adding a whole new system for bards to be good at. What I have for solid ideas here is this: a new type of item, musical instrument, which can be equipped and used to play songs that have some effect on the game. I'm a little bit leery of "magic songs," especially if they do nothing but replicate existing magic spells... I don't want my game to have wizards and bards, the other wizards. Though you weren't looking for education about Bards, in case you or some other designer out there might find it interesting, I'll mention how they work in EverQuest... Bards are one of the most interesting and challenging classes to play in EQ...they take actual skill, for reasons to be explained below. First, the basics: Unlike magic classes in EQ, which get a batch of spells every 5 levels which eventually become useless as they are replaced by better spells, Bards get a single song (spell) each level which is useful for their entire lives, and they can sing their song while moving (all spell-casters must stand still to cast a spell). Their songs are all group-based -- their benefits apply to the group, or if they do damage to enemies they are AoE (area of effect) spells that do damage to any enemies who can hear the song. This last part is important...it's not uncommon for Bards to accidentally aggro monsters they weren't originally fighting, cause of that damn caterwauling. They can increase the impact of their songs using various instruments (and now, after over 3 years on the market, EQ finally actually shows those drums you are beating on...) The real reason I bring this up is the EQ skill component, which I believe was completely unintended. When you start singing, after a few seconds "casting time", the song starts up. It then "pulses" every few seconds, which is the time that the effects of the song occur. Once you start a song, it will pulse three times even if you stop it (by default it doesn't stop). The original design seemed to intend that you only sing one song at a time, and stop it to start another. But what players figured out was that, because a song will pulse three times no matter what, with coordination they could start and stop three songs simultaneously, also known as "twisting" songs. This requires precise timing and attention, often during hectic times...some people are better at it than others. Some people can't really do it at all. To make it even more complex, different songs require different instruments to enhance them, so players not only twist songs, but they juggle instruments at the same time. This is intriguing, because it's the only class in EQ where your basic abilities really require player skill. Other classes can require meta-skill -- that is, a smart player plays a warrior better than a dumb player, and therefore people die less often, but there's nothing about actually using the warrior abilities that requires player skill and attention. I doubt you would want to copy the EQ approach, but I thought I'd throw that out there in case it's useful/interesting to anyone. | |
I doubt you would want to copy the EQ approach, but I thought I'd throw that out there in case it's useful/interesting to anyone. That "twisting" stuff is interesting indeed... sounds like an idea DDT could use somewhere down the road! | |
Does Everquest not have any macro support that could cover this? Considering all the stuff I see people macroing in MUDs even when there's not actually anything to exploit by doing so, this seems to beg to be macroed, which might take a bit of the skill component out of it...
| |
Leftley wrote:
Does Everquest not have any macro support that could cover this? Considering all the stuff I see people macroing in MUDs even when there's not actually anything to exploit by doing so, this seems to beg to be macroed, which might take a bit of the skill component out of it... EQ does a lot to stop macroing...you can't alt-tab out, etc. But you can put together in-game buttons to do a couple of steps at once. BYOND-based games, if they didn't want to allowing macroing for this, would need to make some design adjustments. What I would think about is not having a precise time a song runs, but changing it slightly each time, and having an on-screen visual indicator to show when you can start the next song. | |
Okay, after reading Lummox and Deadron's responses, I've decided to wait on giving the bard class abilities until I've got grouping in, more focus on team play, and a more robust quest system. Until then, they're just lucky.
| |
I've almost always enjoyed played a Bard, or a Bard-Thief multi-class character in my pencil-n-paper days of RPGs (AD&D, and GURPS to be specific). One of the neat enhancements to role-playing that I and my old gaming group in Atlanta, Georgia did was to force the bard player to actually construct a small tune (sometimes *with* lyrics) that was particular to the situation in the game. To combat an angry crowd, a 'placating' song was needed; to cheer up suicidal elf, a 'happy-go-lucky' (sometimes Monty Python style) of song was required - and actually performed! (I played the guitar - which helped when there were several bards together as a 'minstrel band'; we had a flute player as well as other instrument players in the group).
Now I am not suggesting that players download song clips to be played in the game (hmmm, well....*ahem* - never mind), but something along the lines of the old game show 'Name that Tune' combined with the N64 Zelda game (Ocarina of Time?) where Link has to play a sequence of notes, on a flute-like instrument, in the correct order to start a song-spell correctly. The first 5-6 notes, using a standard note scale (A-G whole notes for example), should be enough to uniquely identify and start a particular song-spell. Songs could be learned from other bards (via trade, or through a 'listening' skill - manual or automatic), bonus points could be given for 'discovering' a song through 'practice', etc... This would require the player to really get into using their bard character more interactively, I think... This could also be applied somewhat to a 'storytelling' skill... | |
There's only one problem with the Ocarina-esque system -- when you want to play music just for fun, you'll wind up accidentally triggering songspells. I can't begin to express how annoyed I was that I could no longer play Reveille on the trumpets in Majora's Mask after visiting the first temple.
| |
Since its like Ultima you can use the skill of provocation to provoke monsters to attack eachother.
| |
aaaactualllly, there is a way to macro it in EQ ^_~ Theoreticaly at least.
EQ has a built in system of 'hotkeys' ^_~ you can use pretty much any ability with them, and lo and behold, you can actually use a delay with them too ^_~ Itd take a bit to get them timed right, and thier only 4 or 5 commands long @.@ but itd work *L* Annnyways, eq aside, bards should be just like normal warriors, but perhaps with a little less combat ability. Compensate them for lack of fighting prowress with the ability to make themselves look good through song ( thus lowering buying prices, raising selling prices, and getting NPCs to like them more in general ). Just a thought tho ^_^ El | |
That would be if it was like Ultima Online... it's not. In Ultima, there was no skill of provocation.
| |
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
That would be if it was like Ultima Online... it's not. In Ultima, there was no skill of provocation. Obliterating a few guards with a blaster sure got them plenty provoked... | |
Exactly... it would be cool though considering UO has over a million players or i should say had. Anyways its just a thought you dont have to listen to me.
| |
Hmm... good point. For that matter, I don't even know how many copies Half-Life sold; I think it's definitely high time for some little monochrome snarks. And big blocks made up of combinations of four squares could periodically fall down the screen and attempt to line up into rows--hey, it worked for Tetris!
| |
Oh, don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea for a bard song effect... I'm leaning towards having different songs that inspire different effects, more like emotional manipulation than magic... I'd probably call it "discord" or something rather than provocation, to emphasize that it's music, but a song for making monsters fight amongst themselves is probably going to make it in.
If I go with the song system. | |
Elorien wrote:
aaaactualllly, there is a way to macro it in EQ ^_~ Theoreticaly at least. As mentioned in my post. | |
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
I'd probably call it "discord" or something rather than provocation, to emphasize that it's music, but a song for making monsters fight amongst themselves is probably going to make it in. You play discord and I'll play datcord. Anyway... | |
digitalmouse wrote:
Now I am not suggesting that players download song clips to be played in the game (hmmm, well....*ahem* - never mind), but something along the lines of the old game show 'Name that Tune' combined with the N64 Zelda game (Ocarina of Time?) where Link has to play a sequence of notes, on a flute-like instrument, in the correct order to start a song-spell correctly. The first 5-6 notes, using a standard note scale (A-G whole notes for example), should be enough to uniquely identify and start a particular song-spell. Songs could be learned from other bards (via trade, or through a 'listening' skill - manual or automatic), bonus points could be given for 'discovering' a song through 'practice', etc... Have you played Loom? That's a beautiful game with a great story, and it used musical notes to create spells. If you played CECD to use the "open" spell, you could play DCEC to get the "close" spell as well. One of my favourite games. /Andreas | |
Gazoot wrote:
Have you played Loom? That's a beautiful game with a great story, and it used musical notes to create spells. If you played CECD to use the "open" spell, you could play DCEC to get the "close" spell as well. One of my favourite games. I played it on a mac a LONG time ago. I probably still have it in a cardboard box in our basement somewhere. I wasn't very old when I played it, but what I do remember of it I certainly like. Alathon | |
It seems to me that a bard character should have missions based on this: To play or sing, for example, to a downtrodden town. To sing a song of healing to a sick ruler or official elsewhere. To perform a tune for a religious ceremony.
To make things interesting, not-so-great fighting skills could be augmented by an ability to earn money and experience in different towns. (Then again, there's nothing preventing you from adding such concepts for other classes as well.) For example, a bard could perform once in a certain town, gain a certain amount of experience and gold, then travel to another town and perform again. The trick is finding a way to keep them traveling.
Lummox JR