Here's a question to consider... what happens when someone creates a BYOND world that ticks people off?
The BYOND worlds and forum messages so far have been pretty innocuous, but sooner or later, as the user base grows, people are going to want to use BYOND for a wide variety of purposes.
I remember that while reading through the old forum a while back, I came across someone's plan to create a humorous game about taking revenge on the population of his junior high school. I thought it was a pretty funny idea--when I was in junior high I got A's on a couple short stories that had the same premise. (One teacher did take a moment to ask me privately whether the stories had a deeper meaning, but I think I reassured her adequately.) At any rate, if I remember right, the whole Columbine business transpired while the game was in the planning stage, and the game was abandoned.
However, that was voluntary on the programmer's part. I guess what I'm wondering is: what level of content policing might we have in the Brave New Worlds? At the one extreme would be a simple EULA with a blanket disclaimer of non-responsibility for content. At the other would be a strict list of no-no's: hate speech, violence, spitting, cussing, running, walking on the grass, guns, sex, drugs, and rock and roll... and don't forget the kitchen sink, which is an outmoded symbol of domestic servitude. (Okay, my anti-PC sarcasm might be a little abrasive, but that's the point I'm trying to raise with this post.)
I imagine this may be a "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" decision, but still, it'd be interesting to know the thoughts of Dantom and the users.
ID:274073
 Jun 27 2000, 4:33 am
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Jun 27 2000, 9:56 am
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Guy T.
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D'oh... yes, similar questions were already discussed on the forum, as recently as May 9 and 10. Wow, it seems like an eternity. Well, maybe I'll just post belated replies to those old threads later tonight. :)
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On 6/27/00 8:33 am Guy T. wrote:
Here's a question to consider... what happens when someone creates a BYOND world that ticks people off? It is difficult to decide the degree to which worlds should be policed. However, Dan has made some self-provisions for such actions in the dantom server. Each key has an associated "domain". Right now, there is only one domain-- "dantom"-- but eventually more will spring up. These domains have such settings as parental_flags, pay_to_play, and other general themes. The idea is that people who wish to create exclusive worlds may do so through a domain, and then only those who have keys belonging to the appropriate domain will have access to them. Obviously such a system could be done through the individual worlds themselves, but this gives us a general filter and categorization scheme. It also enables us to direct banners at particular groups (or filter them out if that is desired). So (I still haven't addressed your question), what I'm thinking is that we will have a couple of basic categories initially. Category I worlds will be expected to be at least moderately clean, with no explicit images and blatently offensive language (this of course is a bit ambigous). Category II worlds, which will require a special (free, but requested) key, can have free reign. Perhaps we can have some sort of identification information when requesting a key for a Category II domain. Hopefully designers won't go out of their way to make the content lewd, but as you said, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. | |
I imagine this may be a "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" decision, but still, it'd be interesting to know the thoughts of Dantom and the users. Well, if its any worth whatsoever, all of my games are going to follow ESRB guidelines and never going to be intentionally rated above Teen. That means there might be some slight suggestive themes or moderate violence and gore, but I won't even think about, say, going down the street and killing some people just for fun, and graphically depict it, etc. And, of course, the worst swear word I'm probably going to put in is "damn", which is considered mild enough not to be one of the censored words of the media. Also, especially in the moderated games, if someone goes above Teen content, then I'm probably going to ask them to leave (and forcefully remove them if necessary). (Note: just so I don't violate your privacy, I will say it now that I do log events that happen in my worlds, if they contain objectionable content.) | |
Category I worlds will be expected to be at least moderately clean, with no explicit images and blatently offensive language (this of course is a bit ambigous). Category II worlds, which will require a special (free, but requested) key, can have free reign.[snip] Hopefully designers won't go out of their way to make the content lewd, but as you said, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Sounds like you guys have put some thought into it. In particular, the notion of having to specifically request a Category II key, though it might be a very minor inconvenience, would ensure that anyone who encounters something ugly has already formally acknowledged that "all bets are off." Of course, that doesn't prevent some jerk player from bringing his own brand of nastiness to a Category I game like "Barney in the Smurf Village"; but maybe Spuzzum will share his text-purification library one day, and Zilal could chip in with the "Report" function... Yes, hopefully people won't go out of their way to be lewd or vicious even in Category II worlds. But then, one man's meat is another man's poison. I don't envision myself creating worlds *intended* to offend people, but on the other hand, I can easily picture myself doing it simply as a by-product of implementing a world with its own style. (E.g., my demo with the wacky French-Canadian radio announcer. I don't know the first thing about the people or their culture; it was just something to fill in the space. But the right--or wrong--player could see it as a personal affront.) Or, a different angle: a game that features no cuss words or exposed boobies, but contains plenty of opportunities to shoot bad guys. To me, this would be wholesome "Category I" fare for the whole family; for some people, though, this would come across as an appalling inversion of morality, and they'll be sure to make their opinions known. In the "parental discretion" thread, Zilal and Spuzzum mentioned the idea of the programmer providing voluntary ratings for games. Maybe a "rating/disclaimer/EULA" library could be fun to implement... after I've done more with the weather... | |
Well, if its any worth whatsoever, all of my games are going to follow ESRB guidelines and never going to be intentionally rated above Teen. That means there might be some slight suggestive themes or moderate violence and gore, but I won't even think about, say, going down the street and killing some people just for fun, and graphically depict it, etc. And, of course, the worst swear word I'm probably going to put in is "damn", which is considered mild enough not to be one of the censored words of the media. Good plan. In fact, I just posted something that refers to your earlier thoughts on the subject... hope you read it because it contains a request for a code snippet. :) (Note: just so I don't violate your privacy, I will say it now that I do log events that happen in my worlds, if they contain objectionable content.) Hmm, I better sign up for a few more keys while they're still easy to get... (Just kidding!) Although that is another problem that might need to be addressed. The jerk who calls himself AntiSpatz today might just come back as AntiSpuzz tomorrow. It could end up that people will need to provide ID not only for Category II, but for all worlds. | |
On 6/27/00 2:56 pm Tom H. wrote:
Hopefully designers won't go out of their way to make the Doesn't need to be the designers - I can create a pretty decent FurryMUD that won't have anything blantantly sexual about it - but it only takes a few players with an emote command to start the fur rubbing and purring. If I were to host such a game, I'd want to be sure to warn those entering that it's a free forum FurryMUD and the administration is not activly monitoring for content. Whatever laws the country, county, state, province, etc observe please follow. We refuse responsibility for etc. | |
Good plan. In fact, I just posted something that refers to your earlier thoughts on the subject... hope you read it because it contains a request for a code snippet. :) Yep, I'm already working on one. In fact, it utilizes LinkOMatic's list of censored words in a .txt file, which means that I don't have to type in anything objective, because someone else saved me the trouble. All I have to do is archive it as a list using dd_Text2List and then save it as encrypted .sav and then it automatically censors all of those words, without me having to get into nasty material in a file. So, simply put, I saved myself a lot of disgust. (I hate it when people swear. I really do.) Of course, there are those who would campaign against me (that Black Ribbon Campaign) and demand freedom of speech. I would applaud those individuals, and then humbly say, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." =) (Note: I'm a supporter of removal of ethnical censorship (eg. "You can't post here because you're Canadian!", which is absurd (as a Canadian and as an anti-racist =)), but verbal censorship (eg. everyone's well-known list of four-letter words) is one area that I would definitely like to keep in place. The Black Ribbon Campaign is aiming for freedom from verbal censorship, so, quite obviously, I am not supportive of them.) Hmm, I better sign up for a few more keys while they're still easy to get... (Just kidding!) Although that is another problem that might need to be addressed. The jerk who calls himself AntiSpatz today might just come back as AntiSpuzz What is this?! Some kind of crazed cult, looking to draw my blood and feed on my entrails?! I'd better book plane tickets to Bermuda, and FAST! =) tomorrow. It could end up that people will need to provide ID not only for Category II, but for all worlds. Actually, there's a slight workaround for that... if you check client.address, you can do IP bans in the game. Though its server specific (i.e. it could take 2 or more bans per person to ban all of their dynamic IP addys), it does teach them a lesson. As to the issue of new keys, I think there should be a restriction of, say, 3 keys. In that case, people would be unwilling to delete that old key to get around bans because every savefile out there would be aimed at their old key... sure, they avoid a ban in ONE game, but it screws them around in every other game too. In the end, they lose. | |
On 6/27/00 9:57 pm Spuzzum wrote:
All I have to do is archive it as a list using dd_Text2List Ooh someone actually using this stuff! I was wondering about that. Inspires me to work on the next release. Anyway, on offense...I fully intend to create games to be enjoyed by and aimed at adults. Adult doesn't mean XXX for the most part, but in the end I'm after a complete artistic and emotional experience that will include whatever happens to develop as part of it, four letter words or otherwise. I'm tired of things getting bastardized out of fear of 'protecting the children' (not that anyone here is going that far, I hope). That Shakespeare guy had some pretty raw stuff in his plays you know, and that's one of the reasons he had an audience. I'm also reminded of a play we just saw, called Closer, which had lots of raw relationship-related sexual content. Modern rubbish? Well the other play we just was was the classic Edward the 2nd, written by Christopher Marlowe (contemporary of Shakespeare) and guess what, IT was full of sexual content (and gay content at that). The key to both was that the sexual content was an integral part of communicating the realities of adult human relationships. The content wasn't meant for or aimed at 10 year olds (or even, I'm afraid my dear Spuzz, 15 year olds!), but at people who have lived through these kinds of things and who achieve a kind of understanding and catharsis to see them represented within stories. Those are the people I'm interested in reaching too. | |
The key to both was that the sexual content was an integral part of communicating the realities of adult human relationships. The content wasn't meant for or aimed at 10 year olds (or even, I'm afraid my dear Spuzz, 15 year olds!), but at people who have lived through these kinds of things and who achieve a kind of understanding and catharsis to see them represented within stories. Actually, though I am sometimes disgusted by certain things, most people find me a very mature subject when communicating ideas, and I quite often know exactly what is implied; for example, if a sexual theme is brought up in a comedy (eg. Friends), I don't interpret the theme as "Ew, they're naked..." but rather as "Gee, that's a pretty awkward situation." Not that I'm bragging or anything, but I usually understand, not because I've been there or done that, but because I'm mature enough to realize. Also, unfortunately, it seems that the badwords.txt does kind of include some words that might be interpreted sexually but are also very possible to occur in a regular sentence... so it looks like I'm going to have to do some selective censorship from a list of very harsh words after all... Anyways, getting away from that, I made the system skip punctuation... though that might result in censoring the end of one word and the beginning of another, so I'll try to see what works best. Btw, the words I'm talking about censoring aren't the kind of words you'd want a teen to hear. No, I wouldn't censor the word "sex", for example, but I would censor quite a few slang references to the same subject. | |
Yep, I'm already working on one. In fact, it utilizes LinkOMatic's list of censored words in a .txt file, which means that I don't have to type in anything objective, because someone else saved me the trouble. Good deal. It would be helpful to have a couple maintenance commands for adding to or deleting from the list; sooner or later someone will want to permit swear words but filter out "antibiotic", "recidivism", "ovaltine", and "the". No biggie, though; as long as you have the basic framework in place, the coder can always tack on more stuff as needed. Of course, there are those who would campaign against me (that Black Ribbon Campaign) and demand freedom of speech. I would applaud those individuals, and then humbly say, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." =) It depends on the venue. I don't think the Internet at large should be censored; the few people I'd trust to undertake such a thing aren't in public office, and they probably wouldn't censor anything anyway. However, you're perfectly justified in setting your own standards for your own game; if people don't like it, they can find another one or build their own. Fortunately, in the Hunter beta, I didn't feel any sudden compulsions to launch into a string of profanity... well, only a couple times, and I resisted the temptation. :) Actually, there's a slight workaround for that... if you check client.address, you can do IP bans in the game. Though its server specific (i.e. it could take 2 or more bans per person to ban all of their dynamic IP addys), it does teach them a lesson. That'd be OK... although from what little I understand about networking, this would have the potential to block out (for example) any America Online users in Cleveland, depending on what modem they happened to dial into. As to the issue of new keys, I think there should be a restriction of, say, 3 keys. In that case, people would be unwilling to delete that old key to get around bans because every savefile out there would be aimed at their old key... sure, they avoid a ban in ONE game, but it screws them around in every other game too. In the end, they lose. Realistically, if you're banned from a game, only sheer orneriness would make you want to get back in anyway. With the number of chat rooms and open-access MUDs out there, you could irritate a new group of people every day for the rest of your life. On the other hand, if someone is really bent on being annoying, piddling considerations of logic don't matter much... It seems to me there might be a few details to work out with the 3-key idea. But I'm too lazy to think about it right now. :) | |
(I hate it when people swear. I really do.) I think I might have to finish one sooner than I thought... | |
This may be totally irrelevant, but anyways, the way I plan to handle things like that is to instantly alert an administrator when any such questionable word is said or emoted. From there things can be dealt with anywhere from slaughtering the person there on the spot to banning them from the world. People should be able to create worlds in which cussing and stuff is allowed, (not that I support it or will tolerate so much as a random outburst) but they should be required to include a warning about it in their world's description. mneah, I'm babbling, but thats what this board is for right?
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On 7/3/00 9:04 pm DerDragon wrote:
This may be totally irrelevant, but anyways, the way I plan to handle things like that is to instantly alert an administrator when any such questionable word is said or emoted. From there things can be dealt with anywhere from slaughtering the person there on the spot to banning them from the world. People should be able to create worlds in which cussing and stuff is allowed, (not that I support it or will tolerate so much as a random outburst) but they should be required to include a warning about it in their world's description. mneah, I'm babbling, but thats what this board is for right? When a questionable word is said, I relay the phrase spoken and the three phrases spoken before it to the administrator (me). That way, I'll have some information into the incentive of the people, so I can better judge what exactly caused them to do it. I wouldn't punish someone for letting it slip out if, for example, they were two seconds away from killing a demon and some PKer backstabbed him and killed him just before his moment of triumph. In fact, I'd probably punish the PKer instead (after a small warning to the person who swore =) Oh, crap, here I go ranting about PKing again... oh well, you even said it, that's what this board is for =) | |
<<When a questionable word is said, I relay the phrase spoken and the three phrases spoken before it to the administrator (me). That way, I'll have some information into the incentive of the people, so I can better judge what exactly caused them to do it.>>
How is that handled? The fact that phrases being spoken in the past are being sent to you. Z | |
Not to be a jerk, and people are free to create whatever game environments they wish, but I just find myself incapable of playing a game where my language would be monitored and I would "get in trouble" for it.
In EverQuest, the group of people I play with almost every day are all adults, including parents, at least one CEO, editors, writers, etc. There is no way we would get together in a game where we'd get our hands slapped for using an expletive. I don't appreciate people doing racist or homophobic rants, and wouldn't tolerate that stuff in my own game. But language itself, being used in the natural way it is used every day by every person on the planet who hits their thumb with a hammer... | |
On 7/4/00 3:54 pm Zilal wrote:
<<When a questionable word is said, I relay the phrase spoken and the three phrases spoken before it to the administrator (me). That way, I'll have some information into the incentive of the people, so I can better judge what exactly caused them to do it.>> I have a little log var for each mob. It logs what they say, do, or had been done to them in a short buffer. Obviously, flooders might be able to say babble to get around the logs, but that would also bring down my wrath for flooding =). I also log conversations between players and NPCs, but the second case is so the NPC can understand the player (eg. if they use "it", it would try to expand the pronoun to its proper designation, based on a few grammatical rules that I'm implementing.) (Example of desired result from grammatical rules: "I fell off a cliff! That sucks!" -> "I fell off a cliff! Falling off a cliff sucks!") | |
I don't appreciate people doing racist or homophobic rants, and wouldn't tolerate that stuff in my own game. But language itself, being used in the natural way it is used every day by every person on the planet who hits their thumb with a hammer... Before you think I'm disagreeing with you because of the two different issues here, I'm not. I actually don't mind swearing, so long as it is done elsewhere. Obviously, I'm going to have two versions, moderated and unmoderated. Most people will probably go to the unmoderated server anyway. But, my worry is, if I don't censor anything, there's the possibility that somewhere out there some 10-year-old's mother is going to send me a very informative e-mail... Another issue might be that I think swearing is crude, honestly... =P There's a lot of different, more clever ways to express distress, anger, or insults. I guess it depends on your outlook of things... By the way, I don't think there's anyone out there who has an IQ greater than 90 that enjoys people who violently insult races or sexual orientation (besides a certain ethnical supremacy group whose name will remain anonymous). I'll always get mad at people for doing that... ...irregardless (<-- Z might have a fit, that's why =). | |
Well, Deadron changed my mind. I'm not going to censor any of my games; instead, I'm going to include an age warning first... it should solve most of my problems...
(I'll still work on that censorship library in case anybody else wants to censor their world(s). Obviously, it'll be customizable...) However, I will still crack down on people using explicit references and the like... of course, that was generally implied anyway. | |
On 7/5/00 4:42 am Spuzzum wrote:
Well, Deadron changed my mind. I'm not going to censor any of my games; instead, I'm going to include an age warning first... it should solve most of my problems... Wonderful! Now if we could just get your government to stop censoring things... (Well, heck, really they are my government too, if I ever choose to exercise the "my mother is Canadian" citizenship rights...) | |