ID:818347
 
Moderator's Note:
I know some of you won't like this thread. I also know it has the potential to be volatile. Please be polite and civil whilst discussing it.

Note: This is all opinionated to what I think, so please do not take this as facts. None of these are based on actual statistics of how developers leave or don't choose byond. Any posts assuming such things will be reported to be removed.

Please read the complete post (Yes, the COMPLETE post.) before replying or your post will be reported to be removed.



My Opinion (Rant) on why Byond barely gets new developers:



Byond not getting new developers isn't anything new, but I don't think most of us that lurk around on the forums quite know the real reason.

Yes, you might as well just blame it on the countless rips and say it scares away people seeing the same game. Seriously, get real. I'm not saying anime rips benefit us, I'm saying that they are not the real reasons to us not getting new developers.

Now that I've knocked you guys into reality with a short and simple line of logic, we need to explain what this "real reason" I speak of actually is. It's quite simple, and in fact, it happens almost countless times.

I believe the reasons that we don't get any new developers is because most of us are egotistical pricks with a judgemental tone against people who simply like anime. Don't deny it, because we all do it. I used to have another username, and it implied I liked the anime Naruto, and I also had the game "Storm2Byond" which was considered a complete rip at the time. Then I remade and created this "iObject" with the same game name and same gameplay with the same source, so IT MUST BE ORIGINAL.

Well then, what happened there you might ask? The fact that I implied simply that I liked naruto in my username clearly stated to all the "friendly" users that I liked naruto, which opened me up to being accused of ripping. (On a side note, REALLY? You guys REALLY think I ripped a sidescroller naruto game and just changed up every single icon including the fact that the gameplay is nothing like the only other two naruto games that were sidescroller? Again, we all need to just get real and deal with the fact that this is how unfair we are treating people.)

Now then, getting that off of my back, it's time for the second reason. Not only do we bias based on liking anime, but we bias on how new they are.
If they don't have a previous creation THEY HAVE TO BE A RIPPER!!! DON'T LEND HELP!!!!!!!! HE WANTS TO STEAL CODE OMFG AOSTNHJTGKLNHDLKFGHDATKGLAHTL

I noticed a few posts where a simple new user had asked for legitimate help on programming in the developer help section, but he had not gotten the friendly help the rest of us developers get. What did he get? He was bombarded with raging comments claiming shocking and surprising responses such as: "Why would I want to give code to a ripper?" and "Figure it out yourself. Use that small thing in your head called a brain."

Hopefully we all have an understanding of some of the reasons we don't get new developers, right? There's more.

Now, for what most of you devs have been waiting for. Anime fans on this forum tend to take their opinions too far. This means they take opinions and "make them facts" if you get my drift. Such things cause major arguments and fights on the forums that can demotivate developers from utilizing the useful tool called "Byond Forums" and be stuck forever on an issue only to just give up.

By now, I'm sure you have already replied raging at me calling me a narutard or a fanboy and such, but clearly if you had, you should at least read that paragraph right above this and find that you're just an idiot for replying before reading. Now back on track here, some other things.

The developer help section, aside from new developers, fails at helping in issues unless they are really easy, however if the issue is too easy, we don't even try. 99% of the time I get a DM issue, I try and solve it using my own methods in DM and bug fixing, if that fails, I go to windows live messenger friends (Vocal_Nebula, Teka, etc.) and if they are clueless, I look on the Byond help reference on Dream Maker and if I STILL can't find the issue, I refer to Dev-Help. By that time, the absolute WORST thing to hear is "figure this out yourself."
If it works, it must be right!!!
The famous noob quote that everyone likes to shine around as pride you are no longer an idiot with DM coding and you "know your stuff". Just because someone programs wrong on the developer help section doesn't mean you have to be a dick at them and tell them they go by this quote.

I'm not saying we just paste in newly fixed code for them to take in their game, but I'm saying to explain the issue out for them so they can understand and comprehend what's going on. If they still don't understand, try breaking down the code they have provided and show what's wrong with certain lines or parts of it so they will understand. Are we really too lazy to do those simple solutions to our "noobs stealing code" issues?

My opinions to why we barely get new developers has nothing to do with the amount of rips or FUNImation's ban on DBZ and I believe (In MY opinion) that they had really no effect on the rise/decline of developers.

Ok, I'm done ranting here. Feel free to post your opinions and please make sure you realize that your opinions are really just opinions and not facts.

Any posts that are offensive will be reported to the admins to remove them.
The only issue I can see with this entire post is that the vaguely demeaning, condescending and hostile attitude it presents to the reader is just as bad as the demeaning, superior and hostile attitude you're complaining about the reader having in the first place.

Two wrongs won't make a right, etc etc.

I'll keep an eye on this to make sure people stay on the 'discussion' side of things rather than the 'raging argument' side, if I can.
In response to Deathguard (#1)
Deathguard wrote:
The only issue I can see with this entire post is that the vaguely demeaning and hostile attitude it presents to the reader is just as bad as the demeaning and hostile attitude you're complaining about the reader having in the first place.

Two wrongs won't make a right, etc etc.

I'll keep an eye on this to make sure people stay on the 'discussion' side of things rather than the 'raging argument' side, if I can.

That may be true, however this was just intended to knock our users back into reality. I've pretty much just had it with this crap I've been having since '07

To be honest, when I was the other username and the people lurking among the forums had done this to me, I felt like committing suicide. I make a post about that, and everyone replies telling me "Go for it." and then the admins delete the post instead of just deleting the bad posts. If that's not already a slap in the face they made me want to commit suicide, they even told me to go for it and this happens to other people as well!

How can we sit here and just let this happen?

If you will, please do keep an eye on this very closely. Teka has explained to me he tried this once and failed, so (to make a crappy video game pun) "I wanna be the guy". I don't want to stand here and let new developers take this abuse and demotivation.
I doubt this post will attract anyone to develop in BYOND's suite. Posts like these are why BYOND rarely gets new developers.
Frankly, a community like BYOND is not here for emotional support - not on a forum level, at any rate. Like any largely open internet networking medium, there are going to be people that are, ultimately, unpleasant.

I'm certainly not condoning the actions of someone who tells a suicidal to 'go for it;' we have a community that is, remember, largely composed of social and societal misfits. A lot of them are bitter, or smug, or just petty. Many of them are young and still engaging in the whole 'be awful to people to make yourself look Alpha' thing.

But BYOND's public boards aren't a self-help forum or an AA meeting or a psychologist's office. And they shouldn't be. That's not why they're here. That'll be why your post got deleted; the mods knew what responses it would get, and that they'd be godawful, and didn't feel like letting it get out of hand.

Posting a long, hostile rant about how BYOND's community are all b******s and implying that you, personally are demanding they change isn't going to help anything.
For one, it'll turn all of those developers against you.
For two, it will mean anyone who comes to the site and looks at your post assumes BYOND has two types of people;
1. B******s.
2. People who complain, at length, about how it isn't fair that the world contains b*****s.

How can we sit here and just let this happen?

The community will wholeheartedly and entirely change its views, attitude, behaviour and characteristics when someone comes up with a way to change them that actually works, and then does it, rather than just telling them they need to.

People have been trying since, I believe, about 2004. So good luck to you.
In response to Deathguard (#4)
Super Saiyan X wrote:
I doubt this post will attract anyone to develop in BYOND's suite. Posts like these are why BYOND rarely gets new developers.

No, posts like these are why Byond doesn't realize where criticism is and when to take it rather than just deny it and tell me that the post itself is the problem. Again, as I said this is all my opinion. If you disagree, then you simply disagree.

Deathguard wrote:
Frankly, a community like BYOND is not here for emotional support - not on a forum level, at any rate. Like any largely open internet networking medium, there are going to be people that are, ultimately, unpleasant.
Yes, but it isn't always to this extent.
I'm certainly not condoning the actions of someone who tells a suicidal to 'go for it;' we have a community that is, remember, largely composed of social and societal misfits. A lot of them are bitter, or smug, or just petty. Many of them are young and still engaging in the whole 'be awful to people to make yourself look Alpha' thing.
^ This right here is my point.
But BYOND's public boards aren't a self-help forum or an AA meeting or a psychologist's office. And they shouldn't be. That's not why they're here.
It shouldn't be, but why should we have this many people doing such "banned acts"? Why are the mods not taking action?
If people are doing such things that you don't condone AND go against Byond Forum rules, then why not simply threaten to punish?

Example: http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=812613
Byond doesn't realize where criticism is and when to take it rather than just deny it and tell me that the post itself is the problem.

'BYOND' is, as I post this, about 5,000 people.

Of those 5,000, maybe 20 will actually see this thread, because the other 4,980 only come onto the forums when they want something.

If people are doing such things that you don't condone AND go against Byond Forum rules, then why not simply threaten to punish?

Waving a big stick at people to 'make' them act a certain way doesn't work. They have to realise they need to change, and then want to change.
I know, because I'm the one in the current generation of Moderators who's tried it the most.

It's not as easy as 'simply threatening' them. What do you want us to do, ban them from the forums? That won't make them accept they've done wrong and repent their ways. It will just make them think the Moderators are all ***holes and that they should 'rebel' against us.

Example: http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=812613

Silk nailed it, really. BYOND's community ( that aren't 12-17 and actively unpleasant to everyone ) is split into two groups, basically.
The ones who are still vaguely trying to be constructive ( this is the smaller camp ) and the ones who're already jaded about the community, burnt-out by trying to help and try not to get involved in the forums or other people's games. They might release a library every now and then.
In response to Deathguard (#6)
Deathguard wrote:
Byond doesn't realize where criticism is and when to take it rather than just deny it and tell me that the post itself is the problem.

'BYOND' is, as I post this, about 5,000 people.

Of those 5,000, maybe 20 will actually see this thread, because the other 4,980 only come onto the forums when they want something.
Yes, but again, this is towards the people that actually do this.
If people are doing such things that you don't condone AND go against Byond Forum rules, then why not simply threaten to punish?

Waving a big stick at people to 'make' them act a certain way doesn't work. They have to realise they need to change, and then want to change.
I know, because I'm the one in the current generation of Moderators who's tried it the most.

It's not as easy as 'simply threatening' them. What do you want us to do, ban them from the forums? That won't make them accept they've done wrong and repent their ways. It will just make them think the Moderators are all ***holes and that they should 'rebel' against us.
That's where herein I simply post that there is a way. Simply delete the posts that are offending. A problem I had is the abuse of locking threads too.

Lock a thread when it's about 3 or more people involved in something such as an argument or when it is a "cancer" thread. When it's something minor such as a couple of posts from some ***holes who want to act like such, then delete their posts. So far, out of all of the rage posts and arguments I've been in, I rarely came across a mod that has gone to logical solutions.

You are one of them, and Nadrew is another example of mods that help. There are still those few that don't know how to handle situations though and those few should be removed and the ones that actually do handle the situations should be kept.
Silk nailed it, really. BYOND's community ( that aren't 12-17 and actively unpleasant to everyone ) is split into two groups, basically.
The ones who are still vaguely trying to be constructive ( this is the smaller camp ) and the ones who're already jaded about the community, burnt-out by trying to help and try not to get involved in the forums or other people's games. They might release a library every now and then.

So then you are basically saying that you agree with my post. My post was summed up in that short post.
1. the website and software does not do enough to get new users going in an effective way

2. the website and software both have horrible reputations for being of poor quality and because of this anybody with experience in game development knows to stay away from it.

3. because of number two, the community is mostly made up of kids who don't have any experience whatsoever in game development and a very small minority of the community actually makes quality games. which makes our reputation bad.

4. this industry is all about being able to take criticism. if you are making art, making games, or just programming little trinkets, you have to be able to take and use criticism. if you look at job applications for pretty much anything involving programming, game design, or graphic design, you will probably see "must be able to take criticism". the ability to take criticism comes with maturity. and most of the people here, because of numbers 2 and 3, are immature.
Well, the problem there is that you can't 'trim out' the offending posts very neatly. If a thread has a bunch of replies, say 15 or 20, and 7 of them contain a mixture of useful information and insulting/belittling content, we can't just delete them; then the thread makes no sense, we get loads of complaints from the people posting etc etc.

Likewise, we can't just let them stay, because people inevitably build off each other and start a proper argument. What we tend to do is lock the thread, so useful information is preserved but no further conflict can happen.

There isn't really a solution that satisfies everyone here. I'm more of the view that we should actively 'prune' out offensive content, whereas Stephen001, my 'boss,' is of the opinion we should just leave threads alone until they get totally out of control, then delete or lock them.

Yut Put says things that are true.

We can't easily fix this until #3 just isn't true any more, which can't really happen without either a major policy change regards content accessibility, or a bunch of new games coming out and us 'hushing up' the bad games long enough to get people to at least look at BYOND.
In response to Yut Put (#8)
Yut Put wrote:
1. the website and software does not do enough to get new users going in an effective way
^ Agreed to some extent
2. the website and software both have horrible reputations for being of poor quality and because of this anybody with experience in game development knows to stay away from it.
Reputations mean nothing. This program is really good for beginners like me.
3. because of number two, the community is mostly made up of kids who don't have any experience whatsoever in game development and a very small minority of the community actually makes quality games. which makes our reputation bad.
And yet "Build Your Own Net Dream" is what makes up the community for it's "age problem" and that doesn't damage the reputation, because if we aren't so intolerant of such people we can raise our reputation.
In response to Deathguard (#9)
Deathguard wrote:
Well, the problem there is that you can't 'trim out' the offending posts very neatly. If a thread has a bunch of replies, say 15 or 20, and 7 of them contain a mixture of useful information and insulting/belittling content, we can't just delete them; then the thread makes no sense, we get loads of complaints from the people posting etc etc.

Likewise, we can't just let them stay, because people inevitably build off each other and start a proper argument. What we tend to do is lock the thread, so useful information is preserved but no further conflict can happen.

There isn't really a solution that satisfies everyone here. I'm more of the view that we should actively 'prune' out offensive content, whereas Stephen001, my 'boss,' is of the opinion we should just leave threads alone until they get totally out of control, then delete or lock them.

Yut Put says things that are true.

We can't easily fix this until #3 just isn't true any more, which can't really happen without either a major policy change regards content accessibility, or a bunch of new games coming out and us 'hushing up' the bad games long enough to get people to at least look at BYOND.
My post clearly states that the "age problem" isn't an issue. It's how we take care of it. This program was built so beginners could "Build their own Net Dream", not "Build something that will possibly be accepted if you don't like anime". I believe that worsened the reputation.
mentioning BYOND to a game developer is like saying MacBeth in a theatre. we have a very, very bad reputation. most people just assume this is an engine for making anime games. i didn't say it scares away beginners, i said it scares away oldbies.

We don't have an age problem. The issue is not how many newbies we have, it is how many oldbies we don't have. If you compare the communities of reputable game engines with ours, there is almost always an equal or greater number of newbies. But if you take the ratio of experienced developers/decent games compared to new developers/crappy games, byond lacks decent developers. that's because we don't attract them
The acronym itself is just a cool name, I'm afraid. Whilst you can indeed Build a Net Dream of your Very Own, that doesn't meant that your dream will get free advertising if it isn't very good. ( As decided by the people in charge of deciding if things are good. )

The bit that's crucial here is build.
A lot - and by a lot we're approaching something like 90 or 95% of games - are NOT instances of 'BYOND' in action.
The 'Owner' has not 'Built' anything. He has copied it from someone else and slapped his name on it. It isn't really 'his Own' Net Dream.
It's more his 'Dream to have Built a Net game of his Own.'

There really is a problem with people developing low-quality games. Not all low-quality games are anime, but a LOT of anime games here are low-quality. Because they're just copies of one another.
In response to Yut Put (#12)
Yut Put wrote:
mentioning BYOND to a game developer is like saying MacBeth in a theatre. we have a very, very bad reputation. most people just assume this is an engine for making anime games. i didn't say it scares away beginners, i said it scares away oldbies.

That's the point. The demographic for byond is geared towards new beginners enthusiastic in game development. Not oldbies familiar with stuff like C, Java, and UnReal.

Just because we have a bad reputation doesn't mean we can't fix it. I believe if Byond worked as a whole and didn't just give answers to questions (no matter how stupid they are) such as "Figure it out" or "google it" then we would have more new developers that won't want to stop.
BYOND is what it is. No one is going to change because you or any of the other self-proclaimed "Saviors of BYOND" make a forum post about it. You are so small and fickle in the big picture that your input will mean nothing this time next year. When I think of Iobject I think of some kid who made a Naruto game and horrible graphics, now tell me if that is someone I would want to take advice from?
In response to Dunc4n (#15)
Dunc4n wrote:
BYOND is what it is. No one is going to change because you or any of the other self-proclaimed "Saviors of BYOND" make a forum post about it. You are so small and fickle in the big picture that your input will mean nothing this time next year. When I think of Iobject I think of some kid who made a Naruto game and horrible graphics, now tell me if that is someone I would want to take advice from?

You're missing the point here clearly because you gave an example of my post as well. You just biased me as "some kid who made a naruto game and horrible graphics" and decided to rant and rage at me. This post is what mine is about.
In response to Deathguard (#13)
Deathguard wrote:
The acronym itself is just a cool name, I'm afraid. Whilst you can indeed Build a Net Dream of your Very Own, that doesn't meant that your dream will get free advertising if it isn't very good. ( As decided by the people in charge of deciding if things are good. )

The bit that's crucial here is build.
A lot - and by a lot we're approaching something like 90 or 95% of games - are NOT instances of 'BYOND' in action.
The 'Owner' has not 'Built' anything. He has copied it from someone else and slapped his name on it. It isn't really 'his Own' Net Dream.
It's more his 'Dream to have Built a Net game of his Own.'
I c watudidthar with that acronym modifying.
There really is a problem with people developing low-quality games. Not all low-quality games are anime, but a LOT of anime games here are low-quality. Because they're just copies of one another.
We solved this issue on making such games rejected for posting. We need to encourage more enthusiastic beginners to work together with us and make their "Own Net Dream" and it can escalate into something really awesome. Nothing works overnight, so we need to give it time.
such as "Figure it out" or "google it" then we would have more new developers that won't want to stop.

The reason people say this is because if you just give most 'new' people on BYOND a working segment of code, or tell them exactly how to do something, they will just -do- it without actually thinking about WHY it works or WHY we told them to write that bit of code.

They don't want to learn to program, and they don't want to learn to make games. They want a finished game so they can be the lord of their own kingdom.
In response to Deathguard (#18)
Deathguard wrote:
such as "Figure it out" or "google it" then we would have more new developers that won't want to stop.

The reason people say this is because if you just give most 'new' people on BYOND a working segment of code, or tell them exactly how to do something, they will just -do- it without actually thinking about WHY it works or WHY we told them to write that bit of code.

They don't want to learn to program, and they don't want to learn to make games. They want a finished game so they can be the lord of their own kingdom.
You did not read my first post clearly. Useless answers lead to useless solutions.

My vision is that we either explain their code, what it's doing, and what's wrong with it and tell them how to fix it without code, OR to break down their provided code and tell them where it's wrong and how to fix it. That's sufficient enough to solve a problem rather than just some half-hearted attempt at an answer.
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