You want to make a video of a mob walking around shooting beams at Saibamen? ffffffff
and a Ninja hitting a log until he unlocks Bunshin? ffffffffff
In response to Forum_account
Well, that's just one side of the same coin.
Now that we are on the subject of design, I realized how much is missing from the BYOND site.

What it needs is a "Get Started" page in huge bold letters, linked from the main page that talks you through exactly how to use each program in the suite. It should explain this step by step, as most program sites would.

First it would explain where to download the package, and where to create a BYOND account.

Then, it should talk you through how to use the pager, where to find games, how to add games as favorites, and how to add friends etc.

Then, it could explain Dream Maker, and every little function of it. This should be broken down into the different interfaces, like the code editor, icon editor, and map editor. Each feature of those needs to be fully explained somewhere on the site.

It needs to do this with plenty of nice screenshots, and some with arrows to point at specific things if necessary.

Also, BYOND lacks an official FAQs page, so that needs to be added as well. Here is an example FAQ page with lots of nice information made by Deadron. It would be nice to have something like that on the BYOND site.

Overall, the site itself is not very user friendly for new visitors, and just kind of expects you to download BYOND and figure it out yourself. That's a bad way to present the software. The main BYOND page needs to be updated with buttons that say "Click Here to Get Started!", linking to a page that shows new visitors how to get started using the software. It should probably have a link to a FAQ page, and perhaps an "About BYOND" page that talks a bit about the history of the suite and the language. This would be a major improvement on the first impression of BYOND for new developers and players.
In response to EmpirezTeam
EmpirezTeam wrote:
As for a video, I was thinking about making a video like this one that shows all the current best games we have. Then I remembered there's only like 3 or 4 active games worth playing and the video would probably only last a minute.

The games in that video don't look fun, they just look nice. It'd be hard for that kind of video to work well for BYOND. Even if BYOND had a lot of fun games, the games will never have particularly impressive graphics.

Multiverse7 wrote:
What it needs is a "Get Started" page in huge bold letters, linked from the main page that talks you through exactly how to use each program in the suite. It should explain this step by step, as most program sites would. ... it should talk you through how to use the pager ... it could explain Dream Maker, and every little function of it. This should be broken down into the different interfaces, like the code editor, icon editor, and map editor.

While that page would be good to have (every page on the site that describes BYOND is a potential hit for a google search), it wouldn't be what makes BYOND appealing to users. You shouldn't have to read a detailed guide to figure out what BYOND is and how to use it, it should be obvious. The reason that having this type of content would help is because it'd show people what BYOND gives you and how you can use it (at a high level) to make games. People who are looking at BYOND for the first time won't know if it's a portal for games made in existing languages or if it's some simple drag-and-drop to make a "game" type of program. It'd be very informative to show people how BYOND works, not so they understand every detail of the map and icon editor, but just to see that BYOND provides those tools.
I'm all for improving the site, but I honestly don't see the problem (and it sounds like other users above agree with me and they, after all, were new to BYOND once). We have those big links on the front page. Developers click through to the Developer page and there are three links right at the top that explain stuff further. In fact, you wrote the second one. While I think a video would be great to illustrate games and/or game-creation, someone has to make it. If someone wants to do it and it's any good, I'll be glad to put it right there on the page.

Really, people aren't finding BYOND because we are not a major source of traffic (maybe due to lack of backlinks). If googling for "make a game" had BYOND as the first hit, we'd get more developers. Some would leave, but I venture not for lack of documentation but because the tool isn't flexible/powerful enough for them. That's fine. It's not for everyone.

If we made enough money, we could afford to advertise (gaming placement is extremely expensive). We're trying to focus on some things that will hopefully make us money.
In response to Multiverse7
Multiverse7 wrote:
What it needs is a "Get Started" page in huge bold letters, linked from the main page that talks you through exactly how to use each program in the suite. It should explain this step by step, as most program sites would.

I feel like I'm going crazy here because we do have a "Get Started" page linked from the main page. When you click on the huge glowy box that lights over the whole "Create" section, it goes to the Developer page (this link is also reiterated in text in the main page blurb below the ginormous "Create" box). At the very top of this Developer page (under the aptly named "Get Started" header) are three boxes and the middle one is a document that explains all the stuff Forum_account wanted and even has a link to a page about the interfaces. I know these docs pass the Forum_account sniff test because he wrote them (ergo it is mindboggling to me that he is now complaining that we don't have such information on our site and I can only assume he forgot about this or is just complaining for the sake of it) I really don't see how this is confusing at all, unless people really have such short attention spans that they aren't even willing to look at that section.

Now it's true that we don't have a similar thing for explaining the pager, etc, and I suppose we could do that (although this post is really targeted to devs anyway). I think the process is fairly self-explanatory because when a person downloads BYOND, it takes them to the games page and they click on the game they want to play and the browser plugin should connect them to it (sometimes this is broken in which case that can be mucho confusing, but that's a bug more than anything else). Like I said above, I agree that some of the UIs are outdated but I don't really think that's confusing people.. just not making the experience as good as a it should be.
Tom, I think you may be misunderstanding us. This "Getting Started" page I was talking about should be where new visitors go BEFORE they even download the package. It would be something between an intro and a how-to. Here is an example of a getting started page that I found for Mozilla Firefox. Even programs as simple as browsers have them! It's not the best example though, because it doesn't really show you where to download it. There are plenty of better ones, but I'm not sure where to look at the moment.

Now, if you were referring to the BYOND Whitepaper page as the Get Started page, then that's not what I mean at all. The main BYOND Whitepaper page is not even the closest one to a "Getting Started" page, as it has way too much text. If that were really a Get Started page, then it would probably scare away any potential developers, because it makes things look complicated. However, the Whitepaper Tools page is much closer to being what I would call a "Getting Started" page. It introduces the development software and breaks down the features pretty well. The only thing it's missing is info about the pager, where to download the software, and where to make an account, which should be at the beginning of the page. That is the kind of page that needs to be linked directly from the main page. It might even be a good replacement for the download page. Basically, it would show you what the software looks like, give a brief overview of its features, and provide links to create an account and download the program. What it's for is to tell new visitors, "This is what the software looks like, and how it works, and if you are interested, this is where you can create an account and download it".

Edit: The Whitepaper Tools page does have a "Download BYOND" link. Now I would seriously recommend editing that page to look more professional, and directly linking it from the Main Page. It just needs some info on the pager, then it's basically complete.
I think the developer start page is really BYOND 101, since that is the first link on the page. It summarizes BYOND, provides links for more info, and explains accounts. I can add a link to the tools page too. I would expect devs to read this before they download the software due to the fact that the front page links these first, but we could always add links from the download page.

But I really don't believe this is what is holding developers back. If it were really confusing, we would be getting questions in the forum like "how do I compile a game?".

I suspect most people find our site through games, and some decide to try to make games. That's why we have so many Anime games; the Anime players naturally want to make the same type of game. So if we had more players, we'd have more developers too, and if we had more diverse games that attracted attention, we'd get more diverse developers too.

Attracting attention as a development platform independent of the game community aspect mostly requires us getting better SEO through backlinks and references on major sites (and a wikipedia article would be a good start if they would deem us worthy). I think the best way to do that is to have a successful game, because just the fact that successful game X was made with BYOND would put us on the map.

But it certainly doesn't hurt for our users to try to spread the word themselves and get a grassroots campaign going to get BYOND some press.
Here is a good start.

These are the corresponding pages for submitting software to what are probably the largest free software databases online: CNET, Softpedia, and Tucows.
Not only would people be able to find BYOND on these sites, but submitting it there could have a significant effect on search engine results.

Tom, I think it should probably be you that submits BYOND on these sites, if you so choose, because generally it is supposed to be the author that does it.

Now as for a Wikipedia article, we will need to discuss that in another thread, so it doesn't derail this one. That's a subject with a history of failure, so the article needs to be done right, the first time, with lots of references.

I think the greatest advertising force a product can have is a large community that promotes it. If we all work on promoting BYOND, I think we can easily make it go viral!
Most BYOND users found BYOND through word of mouth. If someone tells you "hey, check out this game development tool called BYOND", you'll know what it is even if its website doesn't really tell you. I'm sure there are some people who found BYOND, knew nothing about it, and started using it. But, for each one of those people, there are many more who assumed BYOND was not the right tool for them and left.

The BYOND staff consistently has problems viewing the software from the user's perspective and the moderators often can't view posts from the non-moderator's perspective, so it's not surprising that people have trouble imagining how a non-byond user would see BYOND.

Tom wrote:
While I think a video would be great to illustrategamesand/orgame-creation,someonehasto make it.

And that person's name is Tom. If BYOND was open source and the community could help to improve the software, people might be inclined to help advertise on a bigger scale. If people have nothing to gain from it, they're not going to go out of their way to help BYOND.
In response to Forum_account
Forum_account wrote:
Most BYOND users found BYOND through word of mouth. If someone tells you "hey, check out this game development tool called BYOND", you'll know what it is even if its website doesn't really tell you. I'm sure there are some people who found BYOND, knew nothing about it, and started using it. But, for each one of those people, there are many more who assumed BYOND was not the right tool for them and left.

^ I found out this way. If my friend Dark-Hokage had not told me of byond, I would have never been a game developer. He told me after he recently googled it (since I know him in real life) and he thought it was awesome, so we made a few naruto rips and then learned that's not how to use Byond.

Then I focused on original projects and his interests shifted towards other things like skating or boxing and etc.

The thing is, I'm still trying my best to get byond better. Teka bought me a membership and I've been using it for my hub and been utilizing some of the FTP features (but S2B is too big for it now about 100k KB)

The point is, this post isn't about driving people in, it's about how we scare them out. This doesn't apply to everyone, but almost everyone does it (and has done it to me)

What's even worse is that the people that do it won't even accept that, even though in reality it's the truth.

We also need more people willing to pay to get people into projects to work for it.

Edit: I'm glad I made this ranting topic, because it seems to be really productive on ideas on how we can improve byond! :) My work on byond isn't done though! I will strive further to create things that will be totally amazing! Keep in mind that DM isn't the only thing I do. (So if you need help on Photoshop, Flash, Sony Vegas Pro/Camtasia Studio, etc ask someone better and if they can't do it, ask me!)
In response to Multiverse7
Multiverse7 wrote:
These are the corresponding pages for submitting software to what are probably the largest free software databases online: CNET, Softpedia, and Tucows.
Not only would people be able to find BYOND on these sites, but submitting it there could have a significant effect on search engine results.

We've gone through several periods of SEO attempts where I have submitted BYOND to these kinds of sites. I have paid services to submit BYOND through the PAD file. Truthfully, ths had negligeable impact on our search placement. BYOND is listed in quite a few game directories but it has not had any major media exposure (which is why Wikipedia won't list it).

In response to Tom
I once saw a wiki that showed Byond (as a program) and it said so many horrible things about byond. Turns out most of them were true (most of them, not all of them)

We have improved such issues like the tiled movement (instead of pixel movement) and the major lag, but they are right in the sense we have a ton of rips (that aren't listed unless you register) and the forums is a huge drama outbreak where dev-help is almost completely useless.

In my opinion, I don't like seeing people rage and hate on me when I post in dev help (which isn't very often you can check my posts in there) and I generally try to find solutions myself, then check the Byond help (on dream maker), then ask messenger friends, go back to finding out solutions myself, then post on dev help and by then I'm doomed unless the lights of heavens shine on me as I get the "best idea ever" for it.

Other than that, Dev-help has killed ideas I had previously anticipated due to the "Un-Help" it is in my opinion.

Whenever there's criticism to be seen, you should always improve on such things. I feel we are seeing the criticism and going through the denial phase and passing it off as if it's nothing.
In response to Forum_account
Forum_account wrote:
Most BYOND users found BYOND through word of mouth. If someone tells you "hey, check out this game development tool called BYOND", you'll know what it is even if its website doesn't really tell you. I'm sure there are some people who found BYOND, knew nothing about it, and started using it. But, for each one of those people, there are many more who assumed BYOND was not the right tool for them and left.

I don't know what qualifies you as an expert on marketing or human behavior, but you are assuming an awful lot. If you had created and successfully marketed something, i'd be more inclined to take your advice.

In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Forum_account wrote:
Most BYOND users found BYOND through word of mouth. If someone tells you "hey, check out this game development tool called BYOND", you'll know what it is even if its website doesn't really tell you. I'm sure there are some people who found BYOND, knew nothing about it, and started using it. But, for each one of those people, there are many more who assumed BYOND was not the right tool for them and left.

I don't know what qualifies you as an expert on marketing or human behavior, but you are assuming an awful lot. If you had created and successfully marketed something, i'd be more inclined to take your advice.

I think most people do find byond on word of ear, however I don't think they decide it's not the right tool.
In response to Iobject
Iobject wrote:
Other than that, Dev-help has killed ideas I had previously anticipated due to the "Un-Help" it is in my opinion.

If that is the case, it is a bigger problem than anything else mentioned in this thread. But looking through dev-help, I'm not seeing these issues... The posts look to be generally helpful. Where, specifically, are you being antagonized?

In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Iobject wrote:
Other than that, Dev-help has killed ideas I had previously anticipated due to the "Un-Help" it is in my opinion.

If that is the case, it is a bigger problem than anything else mentioned in this thread. But looking through dev-help, I'm not seeing these issues... The posts look to be generally helpful. Where, specifically, are you being antagonized?

Um, this was mentioned in the post I raged in (AKA the first post)

I don't know that this happens to everyone, but almost countless times I've posted there you may see it. I believe my last username was Narutorox123456 and some other things have been bashed on as well.

The most issues I have are not only the "find it out yourself" but when they give you a solution that doesn't work (AKA they explain a new solution) and then you tell them it's not working and you say why you think it isn't working and they reply saying it works for sure and they are so stubborn on one idea.

Again, this is all experience from what I have seen. Try looking through posts beginners have made and also look through posts made by anime fans in there and you will see all of the "un-help" I speak of.
In response to Iobject
Iobject wrote:
I think most people do find byond on word of ear, however I don't think they decide it's not the right tool.

From the google analytics, about 50% of our search traffic is from from links to outside games or google searches for the more popular byond games or genres. 10% is from searches for "byond" and presumably the rest is from smaller games and backlinks on game directories, software directories, and social media like facebook and youtube.

It's hard to say how many find byond and get confused vs just not interested. But nothing in the presentation of materials on the start pages would make me think a user that is really interested in game-developent wouldn't know what to do. If they are really baffled, you'd think they'd just mention it on the forum.

I just don't think we are getting any search hits from users actively looking for game dev tools. At least nothing of that nature shows up in the analytics.
I'm a little perplexed, as it looks like the developer help section does generally answer new developers questions, pretty consistently so.

Are there some particular posts you can point me to here, to highlight where you guys feel the problem is?
Alright guys, while this is a pretty hilarious line of reasoning back and forth between you guys, I'd really love for some pointers to particular issues you feel stops BYOND attracting new developers, and a bit of evidence to back it up. Nothing fancy, just ... I dunno, a few links to the kind of thing you feel puts off new developers.

If you're discussing other stuff, then I'm gonna go prune that, possibly into a new topic if it's an interesting point, possibly into the ether. Now I shall take a moment to separate some of this stuff from the matter at hand, bear with me please.

And ... done. Lets try to keep things open, on-topic, and with some evidence based justification, as that is what will help Tom best decide on what changes might need to occur.
Until membership has a clear-cut benefit, I don't think it's really possible to do more than attract new signups. Also, I do believe the people BYOND attracts are mostly teenagers. This means that they'll need to have something to bait them in. Why would a teenager learn to program? Wanna make money. But the chances of them making money off of a BYOND game are very slim. In fact, the people that make money off of BYOND probably know other languages (and prefer them).
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8