ID:958044
 
Looks like "Ryokoshi" attempted to call NEStalgia's legitimacy into question on Wikipedia despite the fact that it had several prominent online [and offline] publications mentioning it.

And it got me to thinking, you know, I think we let BYOND's article go. It was our fault for simply not contesting the claim. Whenever somebody sets your article to "not notable," you just remove it, that's it. You don't need to be a special person to do it, just do it. It only sticks if nobody takes it out for 7 days, because nobody in the entire world caring to remove it is how Wikipedia determines something is not notable.

Frankly, if we ever were reported to Wikipedia higher ups for doing that, what do you think would happen? They'd take one look, say, "Dang, this is a free SDK used by tens of thousands of people, references or not, of course it's notable" and that would be that.

Keep an eye on the NESTalgia article. If nobody corrects it when it's contested, then indeed his claim we're not notable enough remains true enough to apply.

[Edit: It probably wasn't this Ryoish guy who had the original BYOND article removed.]
Thanks for spotting this Geld. These SA trolls trying to attack us are obsessive and pathetic. That Ryokashi guy/girl in particular has been behind several attack threads on the Steam forums as well (most of which were deleted by Valve moderators).
"==Development==
The game was designed by brainless monkeys, leaded by SilkGames, another American who's tried to earn money in Internet with a simple and unatractive game.

You'll find yourself banned here if you're a subscriber in few minutes, why? Because they want you to pay more! If you try to become a great warrior they'll leave a lot of obstacles in your way, you won't ever find a way to play as you used to do in the beginning.

As you know subscribers normally want to play a good game, that's the reason they paid for, but after finding they've paid for a worthless game they always try to get their money back, SilkGames hates that idea! So he basically attempts to ban any new subscriber as soon as he doesn't feel good playing the game, it's easy to explain, he doesn't want '''bad fame'''.

Basically he ruins BYOND Games making them unplayable by the people attracted by indie games blogs, in fact it's true! They all are awful, '''don't play BYOND!
'''"

Classy.
Kids get mad when they're banned.
In response to Lumino
Lumino wrote:
Classy.

No one will ever accuse our haters of being intelligent, that's for sure.
How did this even happen? Did you piss off that entire website?
Well, it's SomethingAwful. A lot of the users have somewhat fallen in on the "anonymous" mindset that the Internet is theirs to grief for their amusement and they won't be held accountable for it. It's not exactly true, but they're having fun.

Fortunately, Wikipedia is easy enough to defend: hit undo. Whoever gets bored first loses.
Geldonyetich wrote:
And it got me to thinking, you know, I think we let BYOND's article go. It was our fault for simply not contesting the claim.

Actually, we did have people dig up a bunch of references. What happened was the mod decided none of the references were good enough and that BYOND hadn't had significant coverage, a claim which was at least somewhat true. Thus, the BYOND article was deleted.

The truth is BYOND has had little to no coverage and I personally believe it's because BYOND is lacking in the public relations department. BYOND isn't featured on pretty much any of free game dev engine lists I've come across, it has no Google weight, and I'm not sure if they've ever sent out press letters. For BYOND to get a Wikipedia article it needs to step out of this insulated community and get some coverage.
I believe byond believed in its community enough to spread the word for them. The thing is we get so caught up in playing games, crying because you got banned for angering the server, or actually making games that we never got around to it. I have been trying to show some of the great games byond has to offer but the truly amazing ones are usually offline. People of my generation are not looking for anime based games; they are looking for a smooth balanced game they can pick up for a little bit have a good time then do other things in their life. Which, in my delight I have been seeing a few more games that meet that criteria.
In response to Legato_frio
Legato_frio wrote:
I believe byond believed in its community enough to spread the word for them.

Sorry but it's not :), although I was introduced to BYOND by an old friend back in 2000.

The only post's I've seen on other game development forums are :

"have you used BYOND?"

And most replies end up being "no" "yes it's sh*%" "it's 2d who cares" "wtf did they make a spelling mistake???" "looks like malware"
I think the reason they're hesitant to give BYOND more spotlight is the fact that they're waiting on these big updates like Flash to give BYOND a little more to talk about. Frankly, I think BYOND has enough to talk about. It definitely has tons of flaws, but the fact is that it's easy to use and you have instant networking. I think if more and more developers knew they could make a game and instantly get in online, more would come. Fact is, it's a pain to set up and create an online game anywhere else. BYOND's advantage is just that, so we not only see MMO games where people would usually put that effort in, but we also see tiny-but-fun casual games. That's BYOND's charm for me, and that's why I stick around.

BYOND's just about the only place where a Game in a Day contest can spawn a ton of casual online games. Every other place only spawns single player.
wikipedia

Welp.
Please remember what happened with the BYOND article. Something similar to this was posted, then there was an accusation made that it was a canvassing attempt.
It certainly didn't lend credibility when the admin came to make his/her decision.
I probably shouldn't need to say this, but I will anyway.

Unless you have something profound and intellectual to say on the deletion discussion, don't bother commenting there.

50x "It should stay because the references are fine and it's notable" is not helpful, at all. Quite the opposite, it hurts the process.

The deletion review is not decided on popular vote.
Before, I was able to simply take it off because it was a "speedy deletion" method thing. Now, it looks like we're dealing with another method. On their Deletion Process page, it would seem to be method #4, the "AFD Page."

Stephen001 wrote:
50x "It should stay because the references are fine and it's notable" is not helpful, at all. Quite the opposite, it hurts the process.
The deletion review is not decided on popular vote.

Well, lets not get lost in sweeping generalizations here. Also from that page:

The purpose of the discussion is to achieve consensus upon a course of action. Individuals will express strong opinions and may even "vote". To the extent that voting occurs (see meta:Polls are evil), the votes are merely a means to gauge the degree of consensus reached so far. Wikipedia is not a democracy and majority voting is not the determining factor in whether a nomination succeeds or not.

What I pick up from this is that although a deletion review is not decided by popular vote, they will be considered that gauge the degree of consensus. So it's not quite as simple as, "Don't post if all you're going to do is agree."

But, presumably, an in ideal world, the Wikipedia mods will be ignoring an comment that looks like it was written by a kneejerking kid. That's probably what you're worried about here.

SuperAntx wrote:
Actually, we did have people dig up a bunch of references. What happened was the mod decided none of the references were good enough and that BYOND hadn't had significant coverage, a claim which was at least somewhat true. Thus, the BYOND article was deleted.

The truth is BYOND has had little to no coverage and I personally believe it's because BYOND is lacking in the public relations department.

I remembered that dispute, and the only reason they were able to get away with it because of a lack of a wide range of diverse press coverage - we were foraging for old, old links. NESTalgia has much better outlook, and if we let this go it'll probably be the last chance BYOND has to get any wikipedia notoriety until the next BYOND game that gets a mention in several prominent gaming magazines comes along.

I still maintain that the mistake was very much ours for letting the BYOND article go. I don't know what that Wikipedia mod was thinking, but Dantom probably has hundreds of thousands of unique users in the BYOND database (shot in the dark estimate based off of the number I see online). There are internet forums which got their wikipedia page wholly on that criteria alone. If that mod was too tech ignorant to see the obvious significance of that, we should have been able to get a second opinion.

But, that said, you're right that if BYOND had a much larger public imprint (PR) it'd be less an issue. It would seem that the preferred method is to let BYOND games speak for themselves.
In response to Stephen001
Stephen001 wrote:
I probably shouldn't need to say this, but I will anyway.

Unless you have something profound and intellectual to say on the deletion discussion, don't bother commenting there.

50x "It should stay because the references are fine and it's notable" is not helpful, at all. Quite the opposite, it hurts the process.

The deletion review is not decided on popular vote.

This. I don't like Nestalgia, but it, and certainly Byond itself, deserve to have their wikipedia pages. If a my little pony fanfiction can have multiple pages dedicated to it, why are the standards for these so much higher in comparison?

What's lucky for the Nestalgia article, is that the editor who put it up for deletion seems to have made his account just for that purpose, so unless someone puts out a well reasoned effortpost on why it should be deleted according to wikipedia's standards, it's probably going to pass the review.I w
If this is Something Awful NEStalgia is up against, you can be sure there'd be no lack of energy involved in on the opposition's side. They're rather reputed to do these things, "For the lols."

Still, I have to say that, as far as their efforts go, targeting an independent software developer is pretty low. Sure, SilkWizard is (was?) prone to an occasional Derek Smartian moment, but the PC gaming community *needs* indy developers. And, as for BYOND itself, it's a potentially quite effective means for indy developers to get a start with minimal coding experience. You'd think it would be in their best interests to support something like that.

So I wouldn't say their efforts here are really "for a lol" situation. It's just being mean spirited.
In response to Geldonyetich
Geldonyetich wrote:
If this is Something Awful NEStalgia is up against, you can be sure there'd be no lack of energy involved in on the opposition's side. They're rather reputed to do these things, "For the lols."

I love how SA is the new scapegoat for anything that happens. It's not like Silk pissed off the byond anime community or anything awhile back, nope, it must be those mean ol' goons.

Hell, if it wasn't for the fact that the guy who put the article up for deletion has done literally nothing outside of putting Nestalgia up for deletion, I'd have assumed he was the stereotypical "Delete everything I don't personally like" Wikieditor.
Yes it's just a coincidence that the goons who have been spamming the steam forums, the greenlight discussion board, the NEStalgia greenlight page, and our email inboxes with messages about SA and links to an SA thread have been "BYOND anime" trolls.

It's also a coincidence that the person who started the wiki drama originated as one of those SA trolls, and that at least a couple members of the SA community have been keeping a careful eye on our wiki's revision history as shown in their own boards.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/ showthread.php?threadid=3504314&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumb er=34#post407178630

Considering that this was posted at the same time the deletion trolling started and hours before pretty much everyone else knew about it happening, yes this is absolutely SA trolls. He even took a random quote from the deletion page and attributed it to the dev team just to stir up trouble.

The problem with this sad group of trolls from SA is that their world is so small that they actually believe getting an article removed from a wiki means something. A rational person with a life wouldn't waste his time attacking his worst "real life" enemies this obsessively... much less some stranger on the internet.
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