I'm the same way or at least in some ways. I care not about religion you are and I care not to discuss it with you. If you say Jesus or God is real, I'm going to say I can see invisible people performing powerful magic skills that make things grow or destroy them. I don't buy people's stories about how Jesus is real and this whole bible crap. To me, there's nothing that can prove that any deity or spiritual thing exists, nothing will ever prove it and that's what I see it as. Things just happen, just like you getting hit by a bus when you walk into the street. It wasn't there before when you looked both ways, but as soon as you crossed, you were hit. Is there such thing as luck? Or do things just happen and there isn't a way to explain it? I don't know. Am I lucky that I met some great guy in a coffee shop? Or did it just happen and he just happened to be there?
- Shrug-
- Shrug.-
Lummox JR wrote:
I don't see the harm in what you said... In my situation the dishonesty comes from the fact that I've actively pretended to be a christian while around my family, going to service with them on special occasions and saying their creed as if it were my own. This is a long term pattern of dishonesty, and I feel that I need to rectify it if I want someone in a relationship potentially closer than family to find me trustworthy. | |
First off, excellent article.
Now, when it comes to your lady friend, that's probably(sadly) the rule of thumb. However, that's not to say there aren't many exceptions. See, I'm Orthodox Catholic.* My girlfriend of...over a year now is agnostic. Despite the difference in spiritual belief, I'm extremely happy, and I'm under the impression that she is too. The problem is(in my opinion) that people forget there is more to spiritual belief than JEEBUS DIED and GOD SMASH.** Most beliefs have strong moral codes that are beneficial to humanity. Now, the only religion I'm truly familiar with is Christianity, but in that belief system there is a moral code all members of the belief have to follow to achieve salvation. I think most would agree that helping the poor, et. al. is a good thing. Now does an individual NEED a spiritual basis to be morally healthy? No, it's simply a means to get there. * I love when someone tries to use Roman Catholic jokes to jeer me, only to have themselves humiliated because they're ignorant. That's in no way WHY I believe what I do, but it is an advantage. **- I think I may have damned myself to the fire for eternity just now. | |
Religion had it's place in the past to control and quell the masses, but in a modern, civilized society it serves no real purpose other then separation and segregation.
Many religious followers like to pretend that their religion has evolved over time from that of their brutish ancestors, but it is only a front, most religion is as corrupt and violent as it has ever been. That being said, I consider myself Agnostic, I don't know how the universe or life and death works and I don't pretend to. Not any one person can really know what is after death and anyone claiming to know so is only fooling themselves. I leave each religion to it's own and I quietly laugh to myself as everyone fights over such trivial matters. The only thing that really truly aggravates me is the holier than thou Atheists who demand they are right and anyone who doesn't agree with them are automatically inferior. We had a name for those people a long time ago, Nazis. | |
IainPeregrine wrote:
In my situation the dishonesty comes from the fact that I've actively pretended to be a christian while around my family, going to service with them on special occasions and saying their creed as if it were my own. This is a long term pattern of dishonesty, and I feel that I need to rectify it if I want someone in a relationship potentially closer than family to find me trustworthy. I'll repeat what I said earlier, more strongly: I think you should stop that. You're doing more harm than good to your family. If they're open minded, there would be no problem. If your opinion carries a lot of weight, and they end up changing their beliefs because of it, there's nothing wrong with that. From what I've read it seems to me both of these are true. But if so, it's a betrayal of their trust to outright lie to them about your beliefs, or who you are. (I'm assuming that since you posted the article, you wouldn't mind hearing other people's opinion on this. I hope you'll excuse me for speaking out of place, since I don't know anything about you or your family, and can only judge from what I read in this post.) | |
IainPeregrine wrote:
In my situation the dishonesty comes from the fact that I've actively pretended to be a christian while around my family, going to service with them on special occasions and saying their creed as if it were my own. This is a long term pattern of dishonesty, and I feel that I need to rectify it if I want someone in a relationship potentially closer than family to find me trustworthy. Yeah, that is a different matter than what I picked up from your post originally. The way I see it you either have to live with this around your family and accept that it's dishonest but that it's just something you feel you have to do to interact with them, or you can tell them and let the chips fall where they may. (This doesn't necessarily apply to your family as a whole; you could pick and choose where to apply it.) I guess the deciding factor is how comfortable you are with moral ambiguity and whether you draw your going-through-the-motions firmly on one side or in a gray area. Whichever moral philosophy you subscribe to will determine how much of a factor keeping the peace in your family is, as will your perception of how they would respond to this. | |
Ham Doctor wrote:
The only thing that really truly aggravates me is the holier than thou Atheists who demand they are right and anyone who doesn't agree with them are automatically inferior. We had a name for those people a long time ago, Nazis. ladies and gentlemen, godwin's law. thank you and goodnight. | |
For all my talk of the values of emotion, I've yet to harness my own to any level as to produce genuine motivation.
That said, I do feel that there's a certain sense of greatness to be found in everyday simple occurrence which is, in essence, divine. Perhaps I'm having early onset Alzheimer's. ;) | |
I focused rather heavily on a specific comment, and didn't really have time to address the main gist of the post; apologies.
I agree with Lummox in that her response was fairly... extreme. Your action alone didn't go so far as to make it seem like you'd be the type to hide an affair (IMO), but: You can most likely conclude from that, that she's had past experiences with men/family/parents/whomever who hid things from her, and that the trait brought up older, painful memories. However obvious it is to state, reactions are based on a number of things, and show far more about the person reacting than the person causing the reaction. State of mind, how stressed they are at the time, and how many past negative or positive memories are chained to the thing in question (and probably much more, but I'm not a psychology major so who knows). As to the issue of hiding things from family, I've had a very hard time trying to come to terms with that. My girlfriend hides certain things from her parents (Such as the fact that she smokes), and would lie if confronted. She claims she'd be outcast from the family for smoking. I have a hard time believing that, but I respect her right to hide whatever she wants from them. It doesn't make me think she'd hide an affair from me, or other things, although it does tell me that she tends to only consider the worst possible outcome in many cases. So theres a view from someone else. | |
Most people around here know I'm a strong Christian. Although I will defend my faith, I don't try to come along and push it on others when they don't want me to. Therefore, even though you don't believe what I believe, Iain, but are an atheist, I respect the fact that you don't push anything on anybody or even take a side really. You're willing to be friends and converse with anybody that's willing to do the same to you, at least from my experience. Also, I find it funny that that church had you speak without even knowing anything about your religious background. Talk about ignorance. I even find it surprising that churches let you play at them even though you're an atheist. But hey, if they're going to be like that and you're getting money from it, why not?
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Fugsnarf wrote:
Also, I find it funny that that church had you speak without even knowing anything about your religious background. Talk about ignorance. I even find it surprising that churches let you play at them even though you're an atheist. The pastor at this baptist church is very savvy, and also a very good man. For one, he knows that I'm not a baptist, and that my family is catholic. He has never asked me about my beliefs, though we have spoken enough that he knows I have a strong sense of morality. He is concerned with the community first, and doctrine is somewhere much further down the line. For him, faith means helping the community, no matter the religion of the particular people. Along the same lines, when he hires a musician he hires them for their ability, not for their beliefs. As a musician who tries to be as professional as possible, I appreciate that. I've turned down offers from other groups that stipulated that I give a testimonial or something - that's disrespectful*. If you're hiring me as a musician, then my music is the only thing that matters (well, that and dressing appropriately). He also pays fairly. So many other groups treat musicians like they're doing them a favor. "Oh, you want to be paid? Well, I'm sure we could scrape together $50. All that pay thing doesn't matter, though, you'll be playing for an audience! Won't it be nice to have people enjoying your hobby?" And the absolute worst of all: "We're also giving you dinner, so that seems fair." * This would seem to contradict what I said earlier about speaking at his parish. I'm involved in several community programs that revolve around his church, and this was one of them, not a gig. | |
IainPeregrine wrote:
He is concerned with the community first, and doctrine is somewhere much further down the line. For him, faith means helping the community, no matter the religion of the particular people. If only everyone(regardless of spiritual belief) would adopt that policy, we'd ALL be far better off. I know that this is how Christians should be(from what I've read in the Bible anyways). It's a shame people don't give a damn about morality or the good of the people. | |
All I want To say is that I have a similar but not entirely alike way of thinking on Religion, and it is Rather Refreshing to find someone somewhat similarly Inclined.
I already held Respect for you, but I think I just gained a good bit more. | |
Anyway some people are naturally more closed-off about themselves than others, and may well choose to keep things private that they don't feel are the business of those around them. Applying an ultra-rigorous "lie of omission" standard to those people would deny them any social interaction at all. Honesty does not mean having to wear your heart on your sleeve.
In your case it sounds like you're simply the kind of person who would rather let people go their own way than throw sand in the gears of good conversation. What's so wrong with that?