ID:1905226
 
Complaining about BYOND is generally frowned upon by the Gestapo around here - but let's take a stab at it anyway. Let's tackle the forums, since they are by far the worst part of this place in my opinion. I also think this is better than posting snippets of my criticism in random threads.

If you kindly take a look at this site. : http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=35037.0

Specifically observe these rules from that page, regarding inappropriate behavior.


  • Creating a thread solely to call out another forum member. The thread will also be hidden immediately and depending on the contents of the thread, a ban may also be warranted.
  • Repeated infractions or escalation of behavior that results in warnings could result in a temp ban.
  • Calling anyone a racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic slur.
  • Telling someone to kill themselves.
  • Bringing drama from one thread to another, even if the original thread was locked.
  • Being overly hostile or otherwise creating drama outside of General and Games, particularly as a non-contributor.

Also, a specific note on "drama".

Threads can sometimes get very heated in General and Games, particularly if they are about a controversial topic. It's understood that when people are emotionally invested in a subject, they may resort to provoking others or making personal attacks in anger. In situations such as this, moderators are expected to warn or temp ban attackers and provokers. If escalation continues, the thread may get hidden from low-level members.





Generally, those rules emphasize two things.

1)Be nice, or at least respectful, to others.
2)No Drama


It's generally expected that you deal with personal disputes, personally - in PM's ect. and not drag them into other threads.

They generally have strict enforcement of those rules - but also warnings and appeals. All in all, it's a fair system imo.

I'm pretty sure we have no clear way of appealing punishments here, I've never seen anything about warnings. I can say that moderation is somewhat peculiar here as well. I notice that at some points moderation is fairly strict and active and at other times it's like it doesn't exist. It's no wonder people question the validity of BYOND moderation!

Temp bans of 12-24 hours might help things as well- if an escalation is being provoked by a certain member that is usually cool headed - for example, he could be temp banned for about a day so he can cool off.


The general consensus I see is that these forums is basically a giant drama story. Maybe lummox and tom like the drama, idk. I can only assume this was not it's intended purpose.

All in all, I think these forums could stand some improvement in how it's ran. I don't mean this in an insulting way, but as honest, constructive criticism based on my experiences here.

The problems everyone seems to pin on these forums don't occur in other forums nearly as often - and I'm certain it's because of how they run them. So, what are your arguments, your opinions?

Also, before you post - read BYOND's current posting guidelines, and actually do read them. It's a post about rules after all.
The general consensus I see is that these forums is basically a giant drama story.

Well, I for one tried to dial things down a while back, but all it did was severely reduce the amount of conversation that was actually happening, and severely increase the number of: "The moderators are Nazis, let's overthrow them" posts.

BYOND's forums go in these cycles where everything goes to complete crap for a little while, moderators ramp up their enforcement of standards, then the users scream about how they want freedumbz, then the moderators dial back for a while, and then everyone starts screaming at moderators for not doing anything.

We're a really tiny community that appeals to young folk and the socially inept. Frankly, we had a conversation on the moderator forums a while back regarding a certain user that was a veritable fountain of drama. Ultimately, half the moderators were in support of permanently banning them, and the other half were of the opinion that we'd just wind up working our way down to the next most annoying person on the list until we had nothing left. We decided to leave them be and try to gently prod them into improving their manner.

The mods do a fairly decent job letting flame wars die out before cleaning them up these days. I had a habit of moderation based on perceived effect of a post, rather than waiting for someone to bite the hook.

Largely, this resulted in four users being permanently removed from the community owing to their inability to recognize that their manner was hostile, and their posts contributed nothing but an oncoming flamewar.

Stopping these things before they happened wound up basically provoking these users into kicking things up a notch and becoming such a massive pain in my ass that I decided that moderation wasn't for me. Two of those users in question took to harassing and/or impersonating me off-site out of spite.

Honestly, hard and fast rules are great for communities with a lot of user churn, but with our numbers around these parts dwindling, it's only going to drive away what little we have left.

Sure, the toxicity of this community is also driving users away, but BYOND's always been in this state where everyone is talking about how we're dying, and nobody's talking about making games.

TL;DR: You guys scream at the mods when they do anything, you guys browbeat and yell at the mods when they do nothing. Why bother? We need more games, better software, more donations, and less meta drama. This post counts as meta drama. FFS, you made a Nazi reference in your first sentence.
why cant we all just be happiness and flowers, is that really too much to ask guys?

cmon guys, pls
o7
BYOND mods are Nazis, Anne Frankly I won't stand for it.

Mods are generally okay with letting threads get derailed, but if an individual with a strong opinion gets a lot of hate for speaking their mind, they do nothing. I've gotten a number of "kill yourself" posts and PMs directed at me in the past but the mods will let them slide. But if I suggest that maybe some of the decisions made about BYOND aren't the best, woah, slow down, stop the presses. Lugia319 needs to be banned.

And while some people are ready to hop on the "Lugia319 is toxic" wagon, it's really not me being toxic. I state an opinion that might be controversial which gets everyone hopping. Sometimes I don't even have to post an opinion, just a snide sarcastic remark about the present irony and people will still find a way to make it about how I'm toxic. Long story short, the community itself is toxic and when I'm banned they'll find another scapegoat. As long as they have someone to blame and the mods have a "justified cause" things will continue. The community is broken and there isn't really a good way to fix it.
In response to Ter13
TL;DR: You guys scream at the mods when they do anything, you guys browbeat and yell at the mods when they do nothing.

I yell at the mods when they do nothing, for the most part - I personally have agreed with most of the decisions brought down recently.

People have problems with too much authority, and they have problems with too little. I don't think we should just stop discussing problems simply because they are hard to solve.


Why bother? We need more games, better software, more donations, and less meta drama.

Of course we need these things! Who doesn't want more games, better software and a better financial situation?

I would like to point out, however, that I was trying to discuss the forums specifically - not what BYOND needs as a whole, since that's a bit much to tackle in one post.


This post counts as meta drama. FFS, you made a Nazi reference in your first sentence.

Eh, I don't see how a nazi reference makes something a drama piece, sorry.

Now, if the comments turn this into a drama - that's a different story.
No, Lugia. You have been and always will be cancerous to this establishment. Your treacherous nature only serves to defile the land and suck it dry of all its precious amenities. What good deed hath thine doest? Not a single thingeth. Your soul is as foul as the ghasts which inhabit the darkest quarters of the Tartaros underworld. The aura that surrounds you is more sinister than the chilling presence that exhumes from Abaddon's vile flesh. The wicked doctrines and forbidden sorceries to which you have subscribed have caused great corruption to every inch of your being. The heart which beateth in your chest is as black as Yut Butt's leftmost butt cheek after it was scorched by the "12 Flames" spell cast by Eugene during the Great BYONDia War of 420 BC. You canst never be accepted by our people. The only destiny which awaits you is one of harsh atonement for your sins.
In response to Lugia319
Lugia319 wrote:
if I suggest that maybe some of the decisions made about BYOND aren't the best, woah, slow down, stop the presses. Lugia319 needs to be banned.

I can't comment on your banning since I wasn't here (or paying attention to the forums that much).

But, I find that the people who really enjoy BYOND - are the players, not the forum-dwellers. Even so, I think that a more open ban appeal process might be in order - so that a forum poster can at least defend the integrity of his actions.
I think bans should be distributed by the community. That way, we could have like, this system where at the end of every week, one new person gets voted off the site like those weird survival T.V. shows. And then the last BYONDer remaining gets flown out to the Bahamas to meet Lummox JR, tour the BYOND studio and sip martinis.

All in favor of this idea say "I!"
In response to EmpirezTeam
EmpirezTeam wrote:
I think bans should be distributed by the community. That way, we could have like, this system where at the end of every week, one new person gets voted off the site like those weird survival T.V. shows. And then the last BYONDer remaining gets flown out to the Bahamas to meet Lummox JR, tour the BYOND studio and sip martinis.

All in favor of this idea say "I!"

I'm pretty sure the "BYOND studio" consists of a small home office at best.
@Lugia: It's not about your opinion. It's how you put it across.
Hands down two of my favorite BYONDers. Empires excluded, of course.
Honestly i think I'm the only one that doesn't see this hate. It's normal Internet hate, nothing more than I see else where. What happens is the computer takes away 2 very important things. Facial expression and threat. We can not see anyone's facial expression so we may see somethingg as offensive when it may not have been intended. And second there is no social or physical threat as this person has no relation to your real life. As long as those exist people will not restrain there emotions as much.

So that's all it is, unrestrained human opions. You get it anywhere on Internet not just byond. I learn just to go with it
Well we're a first world country so what we complain about tends to be stupid things like "that guy offended me".

If we were other places on the planet our concerns would be ebola or unmanned death machines bombing us 24/7.
In response to EmpirezTeam
Mostly it's people calling other people stupid and them over reacting. Great some wall of text just insulted your intelligence, which is an abstract thing in itself to understand what they meant by it. But some people are so big they'll go right to mouthing off as soon as someone injures there self esteem. Why their self esteem is injured by symbols is beyond me.
In response to EmpirezTeam
If someone makes fun of my work than yea I understand. And I'm victum to sometimes being too harsh with others in that regard.
Also, it's "aye", not "i", you uncultured plebs. ;p
Yut Put wrote:
probably someone like flick or fugsnarf. who hates flick or fugsnarf

I bear a personal grudge against fugsnarf for not releasing a new set of conquer demo's. He must be severely punished for such a crime - I suggest tickling his toes.

Also, random thought : Moderators are like public officials - not secret ninjas. So you should be notified when one of your comments or threads has been removed + the reason should also be provided. It would help make moderation seem more transparent, thus improving public relations between users and moderators.
Users *used* to get a PM every time a mod moved/deleted their post.
In response to IchiroKeisuke
IchiroKeisuke wrote:
Also, random thought : Moderators are like public officials - not secret ninjas. So you should be notified when one of your comments or threads has been removed + the reason should also be provided. It would help make moderation seem more transparent, thus improving public relations between users and moderators.

It used to be like that, but it almost always resulted in the user taking it as an invitation to insult, spam, and rage at the moderator. More often than not, the user would use it as a window to argue with the moderator about their actions and, eventually, tell them off before "threatening" to run to Tom.

Edit: To provide some personal experience, I'd end up banning constant troublemakers from contacting me because it was almost a daily thing and, around the time, a long duration or permanent ban from the forum always turned into a 6 hour break. They were able to see the automated action/reason, just not able to message me about it.
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