ID:10661
 
DBZ Relegr8’s rise to the top ten proves what many of us have been thinking for a long time; the rankings system is flawed, and needs to be revamped. By putting DBZ Relegr8 at the top of your favorites, you are helping to bring to light and solve the following problems:


1.) The rankings system is inaccurate and promotes crappy games.

As I pointed out right from the beginning, the rankings system is NOT a reliable indicator of quality games, or even the best games on BYOND. I don’t think that anyone could take a look at the current top ten games and make a convincing argument that they are the best around.


2.) The system is prone to abuse.

Allegedly, Seika is near the top because the creator purchased memberships for people who promised to put it #1 in their favorites. Other games give in-game benefits to players who rank the game in their favorites. The rankings should reflect quality, not which game creators are willing to bribe players for a ranking.


3.) Popularity is rarely a reliable indicator of ANYTHING.

Final Fantasy 7 seems to win every single “Best RPG of all time” voting poll online (just look at gamefaqs). Big Momma’s House 2 grossed way more than Serenity at the box office. Moron jocks and ditsy girls are usually the “popular” kids in high school. Need any other examples?


4.) Basing voting upon membership creates bias.

If you were to take a random sample of BYONDers and have them rank their favorite games, the list would look quite a bit different. Certain types of BYONDers tend to purchase memberships. Now, I’m in no way trying to say anything negative about Last Robot Standing… but we all know that if all of the “BYOND Gurus” didn’t have memberships, it wouldn’t have dominated the #1 spot for so long.


5.) DBZ Relegr8 is actually BETTER than some of the games in the Top 10.

At least DBZ Relegr8 made me laugh when I logged into it and kept me entertained for about 2 minutes. Most of the other Top 10 games that I’ve logged into have hooked me for about 30 seconds before I logged out.


6.) People who actually care about rank need to be taken down a peg or two.

Anyone who actually thinks that the rankings mean anything are sadly mistaken, and we need to prove to them just how wrong they are. This is especially true for any game designers who have an ego about their game’s rank.


7.) The current system lumps games of completely different genres together

How can you possibly compare a chat program to an actual game? How is the ranking of an action game vs. an RPG supposed to tell you anything?


8.) Good games get lost in the system.

There are quite a few quality games that aren’t even in the Top 30. Someone new to BYOND might not give these types of games a chance due to their rank.


9). Did I mention that DBZ: Relegr8 is better than some of the other games in the Top 10?

BYONDers love them some crappy games. I doubt that anyone can tell me one thing that Seika and Mystic Journey have that DBZ: Relegr8 doesn’t have. Gameplay? Nope. Decent graphics? Nope. A story? Nope. An intuitive interface? Nope.


10.) The “higher-ups” at BYOND who are in charge of the system need a kick in the pants.

Granted, I know that everyone is busy… but a better rankings system has been due for quite awhile now, and DBZ: Relegr8 hitting the #1 spot might give them some motivation to get moving on it.
Uh, yes...that's exactly why we pushed DBZ: relegr8 to the top... <_< >_>

*grabs the briefcase and runs*

Good points, though. I don't see DBZ: relegr8 on your favourites list, though. :p
What nice and true words. I enjoy this dose of TRUTH, throwing people off thrones of lies. *claps*
you haven't tried NR (which is top 10) so before calling things crappy actually try them, and also. I agree 100% that SOME games don't deserve to be there. I haven't done anything to get my rank where it is besides program a good game. at the moment all NR will entertain is idiots and those psycos that go 'OMG I am l33tly strnger thn j00' :/ but I am working hard to make it deserve its rank.

I think that games should be ranked by everybody and not by members pages, but have it so you can vote a 1-10 on the hub page or something...
Damn straight! Fight the system!
MILD SOCIALISM

YEAH
Considerable changes to game reviewing/ranking/etc are in the works...

We hope to have functionality out before too long that will make it much easier to find the games you are likely to enjoy. We wish we had it out already, but since most people working on BYOND do so in their spare time, sometimes it's hard to get things done as fast as we'd like. But it's not for lack of knowing what needs to be done!
Considerable changes to game reviewing/ranking/etc are in the works...

That's good to hear! :)
On LRS, I'll be a bit defensive: I'm not sure the high ranking is related to "BYOND Gurus" -- to my knowledge, it got high in the ranking because when it was first released it garnered a lot of passionate players who placed the game as their #1. A #1 ranking gives much more weight in the current system than being #8 or some such.

To be honest, being #1 was probably assisted by my listing it on the DDT rankings as well as my own, which is admittedly a bit of self-promotion. But then, I happen to be proud of the game and think it is one of the more fun experiences you can have on BYOND, especially for a board game, which is the kind of game I play. So I don't feel guilty about placing it high in my own ratings.

If I removed it from DDT and my rankings, it probably would have dropped a slot or two. But I am pretty sure the majority of rankings are from passionate players, and not from some cabal of Gurus. Especially for the weeks after release (and even now for some), it's common for people to play the game for eight or more hours at a stretch. That has to mean something for a board game.
Deadron:
On LRS, I'll be a bit defensive: I'm not sure the high ranking is related to "BYOND Gurus" -- to my knowledge, it got high in the ranking because when it was first released it garnered a lot of passionate players who placed the game as their #1.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not diminishing the quality of LRS (I think that it's an awesome game). Your analysis of how it became #1 is definitely accurate... but the reason that all of those passionate players were ABLE to add the game to their favorites was because the majority of them were "gurus" who had memberships.

As far as player base goes, not nearly as many people play Last Robot Standing on a regular basis as there are that play the games that are ranked below it. My point is that it is ranked higher than these games because its player base happens to be people with memberships.

Last Robot Standing definitely deserves its rank (it's one of the few Top 10 games that does), but my point was that the rankings aren't an accurate reflection of the opinion of all BYONDers.

I feel that giving games a ranking number based upon a popular vote is the wrong way to handle things. I think that BYONDers ought to be able to write out in-depth reviews for each game that get linked to its hub entry.
I feel that giving games a ranking number based upon a popular vote is the wrong way to handle things. I think that BYONDers ought to be able to write out in-depth reviews for each game that get linked to its hub entry.

You could always click the forum link.
It's simply a situation where quantity is put above quality, which occurs quite often in modern society. I doubt even 1/10 of the players with BYOND memberships have even tried out all the top 10 games let alone the games below them. I think an in-depth review system would be great as long as it doesn't turn into a popularity system in itself. But I doubt people are capable of writing intricate and concise reviews for games that inherently have no substance to them.

If you want real life examples of where popular opinion goes wrong look at the present day music scene in general (minus some great neoclassical bands and a few good/great metal bands that are left) and the democratic political system.
The easiest way to fix this would be divide all games into mandatory categories and only the 1st favorite game would be ranked..also, If people didn't see that another voted for their game, they couldn't give out special benifits.
The rankings system is inaccurate and promotes crappy games. Popularity is rarely a reliable indicator of ANYTHING.

that's the only thing its indicating, popularity. if you're getting anything else from it you're reading into it way too much. you vote for games by marking them as one of "your favorites". the keywords there being "your" and "favorite", as opposed to "everyone's" and "agreed opinion of a high-quality game".

Basing voting upon membership creates bias.

and a random sample would create a different kind of bias.

DBZ Relegr8 is actually BETTER than some of the games in the Top 10.

funny, but hardly true.

The current system lumps games of completely different genres together How can you possibly compare a chat program to an actual game? How is the ranking of an action game vs. an RPG supposed to tell you anything?

if you separate them you'd be able to see which action game is most popular and which RPG is most popular, but you're still only seeing popularity. throwing all games in the same list doesn't make a difference, you can just look down the list for the first racing game and there's the most popular one.

Good games get lost in the system.

you still think its about quality games? wow.
Player reviews are coming.

It's actually not intended that you look at the rankings without context...that's why the ranking page has a filter letting you list only RPG games, or board games, etc, based on what you are most interested in. And more features like that will be coming.

I doubt that we'll be supporting rankings or reviews by non-Members. First off, Membership does provide a filter that keeps many many exploits from occurring. As you say, it's possible to exploit the Member-based system, but much more difficult because doing so costs money. If anyone can rank/review a game, then people are going to create bogus accounts left and right to skew rankings and reviews. Membership is probably the best filter we have for that.

Also, BYOND needs Membership to survive, and helping define what are considered the best games, and to comment on those games in the form of a review, is (or will soon be) a perk of Membership. Plus it hopefully helps attract more of the kinds of people likely to become Members.

BYOND is free and always will be, but people who are willing to help the system survive are going to get some perks in appreciation for their assistance.

And of course anyone is welcome to create alternate ranking systems that allow anyone to vote/review/etc, as many people have.
OneFishDown, it almost seems like you're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing... I'm not quite sure what your point is. All that I'm saying is that the current system isn't perfect, and it could use some changes.

Deadron - I agree that non-members shouldn't be able write reviews if that system is eventually implemented. I just feel like the current favorites system isn't up to snuff, and I really hate the idea of a ranking number.
"Allegedly, Seika is near the top because the creator purchased memberships for people who promised to put it #1 in their favorites."

This is false. It is true that we bought people memberships because they played Seika, but we never made them promise to put it on their favorites. Like you said, games that the gurus like are at the top because they are likely to purchase memberships. So, we purchased memberships for those non-guru people who would have never bought memberships so we could sort of break that "only gurus' favorites get top ranks" problem.

If you look, you will see that not all memberships we have paid for have Seika on their favorites. Also, most of the membership blogs that do, talk about Seika on their blog because they enjoy the game, not because they had to put Seika on their favorites to get a membership. We're not being unfair or anything, most of the money used was given to us by the players, which we then used to purchase memberships for our fanbase anyways.

Besides, it's more than just the game itself, it's the community built within it. Seika has hundreds of different things you can do, which attracts all types of gamers, not just the annoying DBZ fans that you think Seika consists of. Seika has one of the highest player averages on BYOND, so apparently it's not as bad as you assume. I agree it still needs some work, but it's not completely finished yet.

We've been working on remaking Seika for the last 9 months, so I hope you'll try it again when it's finished before you continue to judge it.
Also, BYOND needs Membership to survive

Which is exactly why I've added such features to my game, which by the way was ranked 9 before adding such features in.

Either way, I agree with OFD. It does highly reflect popularity. There are so many members that login to my game that don't even have it ranked, and I don't push for them to rank it. I'm not worried about the popularity, I'm just trying to give back to BYOND what it has given to me. If it became a problem and I was asked to stop, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm just trying to help out.
There are some parts I agee with you and some parts I don't.

The ranking system is indeed prone to abuse and people will often then not make a lot of keys and stuff just to help bring a games rank up or down.

But on the other hand, there is nothing worse then DBZ:Relegr8, its stupid as hell. I don't like Seika or Mystic Journey, but it does infact have more gameplay then DBZ:Relegr8 has. As a matter of fact, Id called Seika or Mystic Journey a small version of games like Final Fantasy XII or World of Warcraft. And lots of people enjoy that kind of gameplay.

Another problem is, it IS based on opinion. If people enjoy the game, why SHOULDN'T they vote for it? Even if you don't like it? Something you think is stupid isn't stupid to other people.

Should we start only allowing only certian people to vote for games? That dosen't seem right. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their taste in games.

The only reason why DBZ:Relegr8 even made it this far is due to the fact that a lot of the users don't vote and I would be willing to bet my entire bank account most of the votes came from registered BYOND users within the last week. As a matter of fact I know they were. How would DBZ:Relegr8 look if everyone voted? It wouldn't, thats what.
"The only reason why DBZ:Relegr8 even made it this far is due to the fact that a lot of the users don't vote and I would be willing to bet my entire bank account most of the votes came from registered BYOND users within the last week. As a matter of fact I know they were. How would DBZ:Relegr8 look if everyone voted? It wouldn't, thats what."

Where is my money? VcentG's membership is about a week 1/2(maybe longer) old, none of the people on the recent members have DBZ Relegr8 ranked. So, would you like to pay me in cash or credit?*

*No, I don't really want your money.
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