I'm not talking about types of developers coming into BYOND, I'm talking about the types of things people do with BYOND. This could be new people, it could be a shift in prevailing practices among the existing people... I only phrased it as an "influx" to contrast it with your own views. Since I had already expressed in comment #4 that I don't think approaching the issue in terms of types of people is a good idea in the first place, I didn't imagine this would be confusing.
Re: The comment I just deleted.

It boggles my mind how many people on this community feel the need to say when they're not reading something and why. I will always delete these useless comments and block the person who makes them.

And also, "wall of text" properly refers to a run-on paragraph with no breaks.

The thing you're talking about with reasonably-sized paragraphs and double line breaks in between them? That's just called "text". It's what books are made out of. It's what the internet runs on. Embrace it.
AlexandraErin wrote:
I'm not talking about types of developers coming into BYOND, I'm talking about the types of things people do with BYOND. This could be new people, it could be a shift in prevailing practices among the existing people.

I agree that it'd be possible to bring out the desired behavior from current users. Either way, what do you think will cause this to happen? I get the impression you think this will happen naturally, but BYOND has a long enough history that suggests things won't just improve on their own.
I get the impression you think this will happen naturally,

No.

Stop.

I don't know how many times I can tell you that I'm not saying the things you think I'm saying and you not get it. At this point we're past "understandable communication errors."
Erin: At least, I get the feeling Forum_account is genuinely trying to understand what you're saying. I think, because you're both passionately talking about this subject, you're hasteful to respond to each other, so your points don't always come through clearly in the text. I also have a problem parsing your arguments because they seem to contain a lot of sub-points which don't always feel like they're coming together, and of which I'm not sure what you expect me to focus on. Because we're not talking face-to-face and I can't ask a lot of questions 'til I get it... this kind of misunderstanding is a given. But so the communication error isn't necessarily one-sided - I think both of you could make better efforts here.
...when you see someone making multiple points that don't seem to come together, you could conclude they have more than one point to make.

So many people here seem to want to engage with topics as a singular all-encompassing black-and-white thing. It's weird. We're having a conversation, not programming a computer.
To make it crystal clear: I'm not expecting anything to happen "spontaneously." I'm not expecting anything to happen at all. I'm not making predictions.

I'm saying:

BE NICE TO THE STAFF.

MAKE GAMES YOU CARE ABOUT.

BE NICE TO THE STAFF.

MARKET THEM TO PEOPLE WHO WILL CARE ABOUT THEM.

and

BE NICE TO THE STAFF.

That's all.

These things don't all relate to each other, necessarily, except insofar as Forum_account made a blog post where he decided to try bring about the changes that he thinks will make BYOND grow in a way that comes off as dickish towards the staff. So, I'm advising him to be nicer to the staff while, since the subject has been raised, outlining how I think BYOND could grow.

Not how it should or how it will grow, because again, I'm not making a prediction. This isn't something I expect to happen int he course of things. And not something that Tom can bring about by changing his communication style, pouring more of himself into the BYOND base, or altering the community.

It's something that individuals would have to do... something we would have to do. Not necessarily any particular individual, but either people will do it or BYOND won't grow much.

Understand: I'm not outlining a plan of action for anyone to follow. People can, or not, as they see fit. But this is why I'm making RetroQuest, that's why I'm going to market it promote it outside the community. I don't expect a perfect 1:1 correlation between people who like my writing and people who want to play a retro-themed computer roleplaying game I cobbled together in my spare time, but I do have a platform and I intend to use it.
Then you should put emphasis on the fact that some your points are intended to be taken as-is and not in support of some overarching argument. This, for example, was not apparent to me as a reader (and I'm not inclined to blame it on just my reading comprehension!).
(Per my latest comment below) Your last post is good in this regard because it makes it a lot clearer what you want us to focus on in your argument.
@Toadfish:

First of all, let me point out to you that you're commenting on a post I made to express my appreciation and gratitude towards the BYOND staff. Now read your last comment.

[For clarity, this refers to comment #26.]

If you don't feel faintly ridiculous, I don't know what to tell you.

Second of all, I don't have any use for anyone who says stuff like that.

If you don't evaluate my points on their face even when I'm making a formal line of argumentation, then you're not actually looking at the content of what I'm saying. If you don't follow them to their conclusion when I'm not making a formal line of argumentation, you're not taking them seriously.

It isn't as though most of the comments are particularly long or they're swimming in sidepoints. This site just seems to be populated with people who are allergic to language and try to limit their exposure to it.
I'm having some weird glitch with editing my comments (might actually be a mouse issue, it's possible I dragged text without realizing it), so let me try with a new one:

Toadfish, if you need someone to bullet point or SparksNotes comments that are longer than a few sentences for you, you probably shouldn't be trying to follow this conversation, much less wading into it and giving your two cents on it.

I don't expect or require everyone to have the patience to read every thing I post, but neither do I have the patience to deal with people who act like it's my problem to solve that they don't want to read it.
outlining how I think BYOND could grow.

Things make more sense now. That single statement was the needle in the haystack of all that you've written here.

BE NICE TO THE STAFF.

That's a large part of your argument that I've ignored because it's largely a misunderstanding. You think my suggestions are rude because you consider it rude to discuss what BYOND should do (as opposed to discussing what it could do). I'd hope that Tom has, by now, realized that I'm not one to beat around the bush or preface everything with excessive pleasantries (ex: starting every suggestion with "Tom, I love what you've done with BYOND, but...").

The fact that I use BYOND and work to create things that improve the BYOND community shows my appreciation for the BYOND software. These actions and this appreciation might not be obvious to you, but I'd hope that Tom has realized this. I've noticed people using my libraries and figured that they must appreciate them, even if they don't always say it.
You think my suggestions are rude because you consider it rude to discuss what BYOND should do (as opposed to discussing what it could do).

No. The next time you tell me what I think or what I'm saying and it's something you've pulled out of your butt, this conversation is over.
If you don't feel faintly ridiculous, I don't know what to tell you.

Second of all, I don't have any use for anyone who says stuff like that.

Get off my blog, Toadfish.

Okay, but as a neutral reader of your article who is neither attacking you nor provoking you I would've appreciated more calm, polite responses.

I think you misunderstood what I'm saying in #26, and that what I'm saying could profit this discussion. There's no need to lash out at me without trying to understand!
Forum_account, the post that prompted this reads like a political attack ad.

"In that same time span, Tom has made zero posts on the BYOND blog, zero posts on his blog, made 43 posts on BYOND's developer forum, and posted two new BYOND builds. There's no easy way to count how many comments a user has made on a user's blog or on a feature request, but I'm pretty sure those numbers would also show that Tom is rather inactive in that regard too." is rude.

"The point isn't to show how much more *I've* done - I'm sure if you make a list of what you've accomplished since October 1, 2011, you'll have the BYOND staff beat too. Why is this the case? How are hobby game developers, in their spare hours, accomplishing more than the people who are working to improve the BYOND software itself?" is rude.

"WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON?" is rude.

"The level of neglect BYOND gets seems like it must be due to active avoidance rather than simply being too busy with other things." is rude.

You're using loaded words like "neglect", you are posing things in a way that induces the listener to side with you against the staff... you probably don't think of it as rude or mean. You call it shooting straight, but again, this isn't about facts, it's about slant. You're going out of your way in coloring how you present the facts.

I think you would do better to foster discussion rather than hand out directives, yes, but what I'm talking about in this post and in the comments is just plain NOT PUBLISHING A HIT PIECE ON THE STAFF. Okay? I'm trying to watch my language here because at one point I was personally responsible for 90% of the swearing on this site and inspired or provoked most of the rest of it, but dude... this is a dick post. You made a dick post.
Toadfish:

Being a neutral reader requires you to be a reader first. You're a neutral skimmer, and I have no use for you.
AlexandraErin wrote:
No. The next time you tell me what I think or what I'm saying and it's something you've pulled out of your butt, this conversation is over.

That's what happens in a conversation. You write some text, then I read it and try to figure out what you mean. Sometimes you don't write down exactly what you mean and my understanding of your opinion is incorrect. Sometimes I misinterpret what you say and my understanding is incorrect. That's just the chance that people take when they choose to communicate.

You should could try offering a clearer explanation instead of instantly getting huffy.
Toadfish wrote:
If you don't feel faintly ridiculous, I don't know what to tell you.

Second of all, I don't have any use for anyone who says stuff like that.

Get off my blog, Toadfish.

And she thinks I'm the one who's rude! =)
Forum_account, if you were trying to figure out what I'm saying, I'd be fine with you. But you're not. From the beginning you've been operating under assumptions that aren't true. I tell you that they're not true and then they crop up again.

Admittedly this one is a new one, but I'm not "instantly getting huffy" over it... I'm already huffy over previous instances.
I know when I'm rude, Forum_account. My first username here had "bitch" in it.

The difference between me and you is that I'm not rude to people I want something from.
Page: 1 2 3