Pager (byond.exe),DreamSeeker- aka: Why separate the pager?

ID:134286
 
Dec 3 2006, 4:29 am (Edited on Dec 3 2006, 6:10 am)
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Note for random angry people: This has nothing to do with BYOND Membership. I support Dantom and if I could, I'd donate them even without it, though I'm only 14 and also the amount is a bit costly in my currency. When/if I eventually get a Paypal account or something I'd probably donate them.
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Why was the pager separated from DreamSeeker? I'm not talking about the Pager tab DS used to have, but about the internally used parts of the pager.
Separating it caused a ton of problems and bugs, really, take a look at the Bug Reports section. Also, the fact that DreamSeeker's upper button-line-thing (not sure if it has a name, The Menu Bar - the File, Bookmarks, My Hub, Help line) was moved to the pager is REALLY annoying and IMO really stupid as well -
really, tell me. I have the DreamSeeker window open and focused; WHY would I need to switch to a different, external program to control it? It does NOT make sense. It also makes multi-DS-windowing really difficult, especially when multiple-keying (don't flame me kthx, I do it for testing my own projects).
I dunno if anyone cares as much as I do about this, but I really want DS back the old way, before the betas. If the change is because in 4.0 we're gonna have powerful DS control, that's still not an excuse, you could implement it better. Add more things over to the Layout button, like you did with the Directional Pad (couldn't care less about that particular thing).

So now for the big question. Does anybody give a ****? I thought people would complain about this, apparently I missed it or they have no problem with it.
Dec 3 2006, 5:56 am
I liked the old layout better too.. I still have login problems on the new BYOND, but I still switched to the new BYOND =/
Dec 3 2006, 6:01 am
In response to Narmanb
I don't think swearing is allowed on the forums.

As for the pager, it isn't a control of the Dream Seeker window. Think of it like a Start Menu for BYOND. You can run the Pager, Seeker, Maker and Daemon with it. As well as get up-to-date news on current events and competitons.
It also controls your games.

Seperating the pager from the seeker was a better move in my opinion. There is more room to work, and you can run Seeker without having the pager running.
Dec 3 2006, 6:09 am
In response to Tiberath
Tiberath wrote:
I don't think swearing is allowed on the forums.
My bad. I'll censor it in a mo. After all there are little 13 year olds browsing the forums. Like me. :D

As for the pager, it isn't a control of the Dream Seeker window. Think of it like a Start Menu for BYOND. You can run the Pager, Seeker, Maker and Daemon with it. As well as get up-to-date news on current events and competitons.
It also controls your games.
In the old DS the Menu Bar controlled DS, and it got moved to byond.exe. It was MOVED, not copied, now DS' menu bar is useless. I don't know if the moved menu bar in the pager controls existing DS windows or starts new ones, but it doesn't matter. In old DS you had a comfy New Window option anyway.

Again, there are better ways of implementing things. They did put news in DS text window tab in the past. They can just move the News tab from byond.exe to DS alongside its Info, Browser tabs etc.

Seperating the pager from the seeker was a better move in my opinion. There is more room to work, and you can run Seeker without having the pager running.

Dude, you have to have byond.exe running with DreamSeeker to do the hub key authentication stuff. Not only that but in short, take a look at the Bug Reports section. If you didn't want to receive pages you can anyhow just turn that part off. And since some people will want extra room, as I said it is best to make more things compatible with the Layout menu.
Dec 3 2006, 6:54 am
Kaioken wrote:
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Note for random angry people: This has nothing to do with BYOND Membership. I support Dantom and if I could, I'd donate them even without it, though I'm only 14 and also the amount is a bit costly in my currency. When/if I eventually get a Paypal account or something I'd probably donate them.
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Why was the pager separated from DreamSeeker? I'm not talking about the Pager tab DS used to have, but about the internally used parts of the pager.

I like the new pager system much better.

For one, I find it much more organized. It's like a separation of functionality; just as there is no need for DreamMaker and DreamDaemon to run in another tab in DreamSeeker as I play games, there is no need for the pager, watched games, announcements, pages, and friends to all be listed in separate tabs in the DreamSeeker window. Also, it reserves the annoyingness when multiple DreamSeeker windows are running. If it were a part of the DreamSeeker window, would it be better to be stormed with chimes and receive the message in each window? Or would it be better to receive one chime, and have random parts of a pager conversation in random DS windows, depending on the window I had focused at the time of sending/receiving? Or, even better, why not have it all focused in one central location? Huzzah for organization, I say.

I would also imagine that it conserves some computer memory, as well. Which probably uses more resources between 10 windows, each with their own pagers running, and 10 windows without a pager, plus 1 separate pager? I would fall in the section of believers in the latter. Regardless of a small addition to the needs of additional GDI and the like, I still would think that 10 plates, each with a steak in center, would require less space in a stack than eleven plates, with only 1 having a steak.

Separating it caused a ton of problems and bugs, really, take a look at the Bug Reports section.

Any update in any software is subject to produce a ton of problems and bugs, especially when there is a small staff and not a large million-dollar testing faculty. Also, the term "Beta" implies that there may or may not be bugs in the software, and that it is still in a form of testing to root the bugs out.

In fact, due to the amount of work that has gone into making the switch from the old setup to the new, it would be likely that even more bugs might appear if the staff suddenly tried to convert everything back to the old functionality.

It also makes multi-DS-windowing really difficult, especially when multiple-keying (don't flame me kthx, I do it for testing my own projects).

As for "multi-DS-windowing," I already pointed out what I think of that: organization is much nicer. Multi-keying is just a matter of logging out of the pager and back in using the other key before running the next DreamSeeker window. I believe this to be an ideal situation anyways; think about the organization of software around you. On this site, for example (and most others that offer similar functionality), if you wanted to multi-key as you posted on the forums, you would have to log out of your account, then login again under a different key before making another post.

So now for the big question. Does anybody give a ****? I thought people would complain about this, apparently I missed it or they have no problem with it.

I have no problems with it; I prefer it as-is.

Hiead
Dec 3 2006, 7:36 am
Why seperate the pager? There's a few reasons.

One pager interface is far superior to 2, 3, 5, or more pager interfaces (depending on how many dreamseeker windows one has open). This way all pager messages are sent and received from a single location. Hunting around for which DreamSeeker window contains the latest message from the person you're talking to was a pain.

A big reason is BYOND 4.0. By having the pager seperate already, they're pre-empting the many complaints that there would be, if they'd left DS and its pager together and 4.0 was released. Imagine you have your game, with full, absolute control over its interface. You can put buttons, text windows, map views, etc anywhere you want. Except that there's this stupid pager thing up in the corner of *your* game's window, and there's nothing you can do to get rid of it.

The pager is probably one of the biggest reasons for the betas, so once it's working 100%, they can start to add new features to it that wouldn't make sense when it was a part of DS. Maybe they could add something to make multi-keying easier to do, for example.
Dec 3 2006, 8:59 am
In response to Jon88
Hiead wrote: ...there is no need for the pager, watched games, announcements, pages, and friends to all be listed in separate tabs in the DreamSeeker window.

Eh? Why not. You NEED the byond.exe running to use DreamSeeker anyway. You have other tabs in DS anyway. Also, if it bothers you that much, it could be simply added to the Layout menu as well.
There is no need for separate controls for DS in the byond.exe window.

Hiead wrote: Also, it reserves the annoyingness when multiple DreamSeeker windows are running. If it were a part of the DreamSeeker window, would it be better to be stormed with chimes and receive the message in each window...

Jon88 wrote: One pager interface is far superior to 2, 3, 5, or more pager interfaces (depending on how many dreamseeker windows one has open). This way all pager messages are sent and received from a single location. Hunting around for which DreamSeeker window contains the latest message from the person you're talking to was a pain.

((I wouldn't mind that much if ONLY the pager and news were ported over to a rather optional-to-use byond.exe. That would be somewhat the ideal, though they chose not to do it.)).I never said THAT was good in the old DS, it was bad, BUT making the byond.exe wasn't the way to go, there are better ways to do it. For example - when a new DS window is launched, it should be pretty simple to detect if a DS window is already running, and if so, don't create the Pager and the News tabs. When a new news/page is received, the first window (the only one with the extra tabs) will flash in the taskbar, so it's easy to distuinguish. It could also have a slight alternation in the window name to help distuinguishion.

Hiead wrote: Any update in any software is subject to produce a ton of problems and bugs...

xD Hell no. That's a real problem. In your sentence, replace "a ton" with "a few". One of the "a few" could be a major problem (DM-small-scale: Imagine not calling the parent in an overrided Login() proc) but once that is cleared up, smooth sailing from there.

Hiead wrote: In fact, due to the amount of work that has gone into making the switch from the old setup to the new--

Amount of work? No disrespect to the staff, but really, think about it. They mostly moved features around, a matter of copy&pasting code from DS' source to byond.exe's, making some slight alternations afterwise.

(continued): --it would be likely that even more bugs might appear if the staff suddenly tried to convert everything back to the old functionality.

Actually, it's pretty clear that a fair amount of the current bugs have to do with byond.exe communicating with DreamSeeker or similar. And again, there's barely any converting, they do not have to 'convert' back. They have the old source code of DS as well. It should be much easier than separating byond.exe and DS, and as I said the problems caused from that will be eliminated.

Hiead wrote: Multi-keying is just a matter of logging out of the pager and back in using the other key before running the next DreamSeeker window.
It used to be a matter of just pressing CTRL-L, if needed (another feature which BTW was also sadly and pointlessly removed), then changing your current key by pressing a menu item in DreamSeeker.
You make the current situation sound and quick. Now you have to logout from the pager, close the DS window, then re-login to the pager and re-open DS. "just a matter of", huh?

Hiead wrote: I believe this to be an ideal situation anyways; think about the organization of software around you. On this site, for example (and most others that offer similar functionality), if you wanted to multi-key as you posted on the forums, you would have to log out of your account, then login again under a different key before making another post.

EH?! It's ideal just because it's now similar to other things? Especially considering BYOND worlds aren't similar to a website/forum, you'd have to do better than that.
"think about the organization of software around you". Alright. *looks around me*. I think we can agree Windows sucks in a lot of things. Should BYOND just go along with the herd? Nope, I don't think so.

Jon88 wrote: A big reason is BYOND 4.0...

My first post: If the change is because in 4.0 we're gonna have powerful DS control, that's still not an excuse, you could implement it better. Add more things over to the Layout button, like you did with the Directional Pad (couldn't care less about that particular thing).
Let me elaborate on that. I shall highlight your own post to clarify.

Jon88 wrote: By having the pager seperate already, they're pre-empting the many complaints that there would be, {if they did things alright there would be no complaints} if they'd left DS and its pager together and 4.0 was released. Imagine you have your game, with full, absolute control over its interface. You can put buttons, text windows, map views, etc anywhere you want. Except that there's this stupid pager thing up in the corner of *your* game's window, and there's nothing you can do to get rid of it.

Right. So much for full, absolute control, huh? The answer is so obvious, really, I think stating it would be a waste of time. I already suggested adding the Pager tab's visibillity to be user-customizable from the Layout menu. If BYOND 4.0 does, bless the BYOND crew, give that full absolute control, the developer would be able to hide it too, don'tcha think? Precedence of user-decided / developer-decided is another slight issue, but off-topic here.

Jon88 wrote: The pager is probably one of the biggest reasons for the betas, so once it's working 100%, they can start to add new features to it that wouldn't make sense when it was a part of DS. Maybe they could add something to make multi-keying easier to do, for example.
Sorry, you'll have to supply better examples. When the pager was a part of DS, multi-keying was already easy.
So yeah, OK! Technically, your statement is correct! Making multi-keying easier when the pager was already a part of DS would NOT make any sense, because it was already easy...

Hiead wrote: I have no problems with it; I prefer it as-is.
Obviously, there's nothing wrong with that - but I'm not sure if you prefer it with all the bugs... the BYOND crew probably doesn't.

=================================================
Okay, so really, with anything that is well-arguable, customizabillity is usually the way to go. I hope this post proves that this subject is definetely arguable. :P
Not because of Jon and Hiead's points, which I believe I addressed, but because of them stating they like the new pager better.
An option in the installer whether to install an external pager (byond.exe) or install a built-in one (built-in to DS, like old vers) may be the best in the end.
Dec 3 2006, 10:41 am
In response to Kaioken
Kaioken wrote:
Hiead wrote:
Any update in any software is subject to produce a ton of problems and bugs...

xD Hell no. That's a real problem. In your sentence, replace "a ton" with "a few". One of the "a few" could be a major problem (DM-small-scale: Imagine not calling the parent in an overrided Login() proc) but once that is cleared up, smooth sailing from there.

Removing functionality from one code base and grafting it into another code base is a major update which always causes a lot of bugs in any project.


In fact, due to the amount of work that has gone into making the switch from the old setup to the new[snip]

Amount of work? No disrespect to the staff, but really, think about it. They mostly moved features around, a matter of copy&pasting code from DS' source to byond.exe's, making some slight alternations afterwise.

I'm not sure what your programming experience is outside of BYOND, but that's just plain stupid. There's a hell of a lot of work that goes into integrating a portion of code into a different code base. C++ isn't DM; you can't just take one file, plug it into another project, and expect it to compile without giving you hundreds or even thousands of errors. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to rewrite at least 10-20% of the code from scratch.


it would be likely that even more bugs might appear if the staff suddenly tried to convert everything back to the old functionality.

Actually, it's pretty clear that a fair amount of the current bugs have to do with byond.exe communicating with DreamSeeker or similar. And again, there's barely any converting, they do not have to 'convert' back. They have the old source code of DS as well. It should be much easier than separating byond.exe and DS, and as I said the problems caused from that will be eliminated.

As I implied above, they would indeed have to "convert" back.


Multi-keying is just a matter of logging out of the pager and back in using the other key before running the next DreamSeeker window.

It used to be a matter of just pressing CTRL-L, if needed (another feature which BTW was also sadly and pointlessly removed), then changing your current key by pressing a menu item in DreamSeeker.

Pointlessly removed? It wasn't needed. Close your Dream Seeker window to log out. This is much more intuitive for most BYOND users, as the vast majority of people who use BYOND are players, not developers. If you want to do multi-key testing, host it in Dream Daemon instead.

The big thing here is you're stuck in the line of thinking that Dream Seeker was a game browser and client put together. It was only ever intended to be a client -- the pager was grafted in as an afterthought, and that wasn't even until DUNG 2.0 (version 208 or so!)! I can safely say that I think it was implemented the wrong way in the beginning. It took us this long to realise it, though, because back then DUNG/BYOND were just unknowns that no one really played, so they needed it all in one place or else no one would ever be able to play a game with someone else.


You make the current situation sound and quick. Now you have to logout from the pager, close the DS window, then re-login to the pager and re-open DS. "just a matter of", huh?

You were talking about multi-keying. If you want to multikey, Hiead's method is what you need: log out of the pager, then log back in to the pager with a different key, open a new instance of Dream Seeker (which will now be using your new key), and connect to the world you're hosting locally. If you want to actually switch keys entirely, yes, your method is what's required. But how many people switch keys entirely instead of just multi-key for local testing? How many people switch keys entirely online if they're not trying to do something furtive or trying to hide something?


I believe this to be an ideal situation anyways; think about the organization of software around you. On this site, for example (and most others that offer similar functionality), if you wanted to multi-key as you posted on the forums, you would have to log out of your account, then login again under a different key before making another post.

EH?! It's ideal just because it's now similar to other things? Especially considering BYOND worlds aren't similar to a website/forum, you'd have to do better than that.
"think about the organization of software around you". Alright. *looks around me*. I think we can agree Windows sucks in a lot of things. Should BYOND just go along with the herd? Nope, I don't think so.

Intuitiveness. I don't need to say more, because that says everything for me. If you don't understand intuitive interfaces, you need to go look it up before you get into any serious BYOND development. There are lots of good books on the subject. =)


Jon88 wrote:
A big reason is BYOND 4.0...

My first post: If the change is because in 4.0 we're gonna have powerful DS control, that's still not an excuse, you could implement it better. Add more things over to the Layout button, like you did with the Directional Pad (couldn't care less about that particular thing).

Let me elaborate on that. I shall highlight your own post to clarify.

By having the pager seperate already, they're pre-empting the many complaints that there would be, {if they did things alright there would be no complaints} if they'd left DS and its pager together and 4.0 was released. Imagine you have your game, with full, absolute control over its interface. You can put buttons, text windows, map views, etc anywhere you want. Except that there's this stupid pager thing up in the corner of *your* game's window, and there's nothing you can do to get rid of it.

Right. So much for full, absolute control, huh? The answer is so obvious, really, I think stating it would be a waste of time. I already suggested adding the Pager tab's visibillity to be user-customizable from the Layout menu. If BYOND 4.0 does, bless the BYOND crew, give that full absolute control, the developer would be able to hide it too, don'tcha think? Precedence of user-decided / developer-decided is another slight issue, but off-topic here.

I have to say that most developers would want to disable the pager tabs and windows completely in their games. There's also the serious ambiguity with deciding where and how the pager would appear if a developer didn't want it to be a part of the client window.

Where do you think a developer would normally have the pager appear? The answer is so obvious, really, I think stating it would be a waste of time. ;-)


The pager is probably one of the biggest reasons for the betas, so once it's working 100%, they can start to add new features to it that wouldn't make sense when it was a part of DS. Maybe they could add something to make multi-keying easier to do, for example.

Sorry, you'll have to supply better examples. When the pager was a part of DS, multi-keying was already easy.

So yeah, OK! Technically, your statement is correct! Making multi-keying easier when the pager was already a part of DS would NOT make any sense, because it was already easy...

Uh, he was observing that it was indeed difficult to multi-key with the new configuration. But personally I don't see this as a disadvantage. Making it more difficult to multi-key makes it more difficult for people to multi-key (or in terms of a mathematical equation, difficulty+1 = difficulty+1), which is (number pulled out of the air) 95% of the time because someone wants to abuse something, not because someone wants to test something. Dead reckoning, BYOND has at least five times as many players as developers, and that's probably a conservative estimate.


Hiead wrote:
I have no problems with it; I prefer it as-is.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with that - but I'm not sure if you prefer it with all the bugs... the BYOND crew probably doesn't.

Most of us aren't having any bugs with the new interface. It's only the rare coincidences of hardware configurations and software setups that are bringing these about.


Okay, so really, with anything that is well-arguable, customizabillity is usually the way to go. I hope this post proves that this subject is definetely arguable. :P
Not because of Jon and Hiead's points, which I believe I addressed, but because of them stating they like the new pager better.

I like the new pager better too. I think a lot of the hardcore BYOND developers like it more. I imagine a fair portion of the players like it less, but that's progress for you. ;-)


An option in the installer whether to install an external pager (byond.exe) or install a built-in one (built-in to DS, like old vers) may be the best in the end.

That option would make it even harder on the developers because the developers would then need to program two window layouts for their games.
Dec 3 2006, 11:25 am
In response to Kaioken
Kaioken wrote:
Hiead wrote: ...there is no need for the pager, watched games, announcements, pages, and friends to all be listed in separate tabs in the DreamSeeker window.

Eh? Why not. You NEED the byond.exe running to use DreamSeeker anyway. You have other tabs in DS anyway. Also, if it bothers you that much, it could be simply added to the Layout menu as well.

Why not? Because the pager can list that stuff separately.

For example - when a new DS window is launched, it should be pretty simple to detect if a DS window is already running, and if so, don't create the Pager and the News tabs. When a new news/page is received, the first window (the only one with the extra tabs) will flash in the taskbar, so it's easy to distuinguish. It could also have a slight alternation in the window name to help distuinguishion.
Precedence of user-decided / developer-decided is another slight issue, but off-topic here.

No, it's not off-topic. Having a randomly chosen tab appear on my game's window, based on the order that the user opened it, would not be preferable; I as a developer would likely try to hide it. Guess what? If I hid it, and it only opened on my window, the user now has no pager.

Besides that, this makes the system more friendly to developers. By removing the pager, the developer is free to choose exactly how their game's window appears without obstructing pager functionality. Suppose I wanted to stretch the viewport entirely over the client area of the window, leaving no room for the good ol' pager tab? The user can still go to their local byond.exe and check out the stuff.

Hiead wrote: Any update in any software is subject to produce a ton of problems and bugs...

xD Hell no. That's a real problem. In your sentence, replace "a ton" with "a few". One of the "a few" could be a major problem (DM-small-scale: Imagine not calling the parent in an overrided Login() proc) but once that is cleared up, smooth sailing from there.

Have you ever heard of the Domino effect? Perhaps a new feature that was implemented in any of the BYOND suite's programs were intended to function in the exact arrangement as the program is set up currently. Then they try to convert everything backwards as you have suggested, and the one original design doesn't fit. Because of that, anything that the feature was molded into stops working, and those features break all touching features. At this point, we now have more than "a few" problems.

Hiead wrote: In fact, due to the amount of work that has gone into making the switch from the old setup to the new--

Amount of work? No disrespect to the staff, but really, think about it. They mostly moved features around, a matter of copy&pasting code from DS' source to byond.exe's, making some slight alternations afterwise.

You're living a very protected and ignorant life. :P Outside of BYOND, most code can't just be copy+pasted and still work. It all has to fit nicely like one giant jigsaw puzzle. You ought to go download the Firefox source, take one file, and cut|paste part of it into a different random file. I'm sure you won't be looking at a very project at that point.

(continued): --it would be likely that even more bugs might appear if the staff suddenly tried to convert everything back to the old functionality.

Actually, it's pretty clear that a fair amount of the current bugs have to do with byond.exe communicating with DreamSeeker or similar. And again, there's barely any converting, they do not have to 'convert' back.

Right. Go download something like Firefox's source code. Try to make it so that there is no tabbed browsing; why not make everything pop up in the one window? I guarantee it would take quite some time.

They have the old source code of DS as well. It should be much easier than separating byond.exe and DS, and as I said the problems caused from that will be eliminated.

Right again. Surely no progress has happened since the old version with the pager combined; let's just compile the old DreamSeeker source code and package that with the suite instead.

You make the current situation sound and quick. Now you have to logout from the pager, close the DS window

So you're talking about changing to use different keys in the same game, separately? If you want to change through 50 keys to play a game, you probably deserve more of a hassle.

I thought you wanted to be testing by multi-keying, which would imply simultaneous usage of multiple keys. All you have to do there is log out of and into the pager, before running your next connection to the DreamSeeker world.

EH?! It's ideal just because it's now similar to other things?

In a sense, yes. But only because it's a proven method-of-use. For example, a frequent poster on the forums would rather login once, and then go on to post several times, than to have to login prior to each post, just because some people like to post under a different key each time.

Especially considering BYOND worlds aren't similar to a website/forum

Sure they are; you have an account, you log in, you handle your business, and you log out. Similarity.

you'd have to do better than that.

You repeat this consistently, but you aren't offering any better.

I think we can agree Windows sucks in a lot of things. Should BYOND just go along with the herd? Nope, I don't think so.

Windows does do many things correctly. Should every program in existence use a completely unique windowing setup? No; familiarity to the interface is friendly and acceptable. If every program required its own lengthy learning curve, people would either become frustrated, agitated, or forgetful of what happens where. This is why many programs, though unnecessary, contain many of the same elements: you have your lovely menu bar, the Minimize|Maximize/Restore|Close buttons, a client area, and so on. Your browser almost assuredly has some place for you to type into. Does it need this? No. How about the browser doesn't follow the herd, and let you type the URL without seeing what you're typing, hoping that you remember what you've typed before pressing "Enter." Instead of scroll bars, why not have a prompt for how many pixels you would like to shift downwards/to the right? Yeah.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with that - but I'm not sure if you prefer it with all the bugs... the BYOND crew probably doesn't.

As Jon said, it's just a few unhappy campers experiencing any problems; I myself haven't come upon any in quite some time. Such bugs can be fixed if intuitive Bug Reports are filed.

Okay, so really, with anything that is well-arguable, customizabillity is usually the way to go.

And I ask, what is more customizable? A tab that randomly appears in someone's game, because the user has opened theirs first (as you suggested), or removing the tab entirely, placing it in a new window that can allow for its own user-suggested unique customization and giving the developers more complete control of the customization of their games?

Hiead
Dec 3 2006, 11:30 am
Why seperate the pager?

Because BYOND Staff said so.
Dec 3 2006, 11:34 am
In response to Android Data
That too, but we tend to prefer having at least some influence on BYOND's outcome. ;-)
Dec 3 2006, 11:35 am
In response to Jtgibson
Jtgibson wrote:
That too, but we tend to prefer having at least some influence on BYOND's outcome. ;-)

Preference is irrelevant. Influence is obsolete. BYOND will assimilate you and put you in it's collective. You are nothing but a worker bee.
Dec 3 2006, 12:16 pm
Everyone already did complain about a year ago.

It didn't help the reception of the new pager system that there were lots of bugs and problems with the new software- but what do you expect? It's beta.
Dec 4 2006, 4:43 am
In response to Elation
Hiead, looks like we could go on for days, huh? I can bring about another huge post now, but I'm getting tired (and our posts will get repeative, soon), also these forums need a <quote> tag or something. >_>


How about we settle down (:D) for an optional-to-run byond.exe with News and the Pager, but DreamSeeker gets it's damn [window-specific] Menu Bar back intact. I don't care what you say, just copy-pasting the Menu Bar part of old DS' source will do the job alright. Again, doesn't it look like they copy-pasted it over to byond.exe then changed it some?
Once more, the removal of that Menu Bar doesn't make sense. The only thing that totally makes sense in the 'new DS' is that the Directional Pad is now optional. ^_^

Also of course DS should really do the hub key authentication stuff on it's own. I could understand if BYOND had more programs that do that authentication, but only DS does. Alright, if the above suggestion is made it will now be DS & byond.exe[pager+news] - but it's for the better.

Android Data wrote:
Why seperate the pager?

Because BYOND Staff said so.
Preference is irrelevant. Influence is obsolete. BYOND will assimilate you and put you in it's collective. You are nothing but a worker bee.

You have a point... *hides*