ID:137991
 
Goodness, there were a lot of posts today. It's great to see so much activity on these boards. I thought I would take a few moments to address some of the points recently.

Forum Guidelines
This forum has no official guidelines. It's not technically moderated but I will occassionally delete posts if they are especially offensive or likely to start a flame war. It's okay to suggest features or even criticize BYOND or games made using BYOND, but don't do so with the intention of just offending us or the game designers.

I would also like to cut down on the swearing in some of the posts. As Spuzzum noted, we have users of all ages, races, and sexes (male, female, neuter :) here, so please keep this in mind when posting even the most frivolous topic. I can add a swear filter if you think it would be useful.

While I have criticized others for posting in the wrong forums in the past, it's really not a major issue to me. The topics aren't that clear (general and babble have a lot of overlap .. take this post for instance) so just pick the category that seems to fit best. No big whoop. More important, I feel, is attempting to keep the forums filled with content rather than clutter. This just means doing a bit of research (via the forum search, FAQ, tutorials, etc) before posting possibly repetetive topics. Again, this is a judgement call. I definitely want to encourage discussion, and for the most part I'm really pleased with the material to be found here.

Oh, also to reiterate Gughunter's excellent observation, please don't quote entire posts when responding only to a part of them. Anyone doing so with this lengthy post will be banned for life! Would it help to have separate "Reply" and "Reply with Quote" buttons? I was thinking that might be useful.

Feature Creep
At the moment, we are not adding new features to BYOND. This current release has a few remaining problems but seems to be fairly stable (please inform us if this doesn't appear to be true), and we don't want to break that anytime soon. Those of you who have been here for a little while know the great pains incurred when that happens.

You are welcome to request features, and we are equally welcome to ignore them :) Actually we try to be very attentive to all requests and put them on an evergrowing List of things to consider for implementation. BYOND owes much of its versatility to the suggestions of you users, and we are much indebted (and in debt) for it.

We are instead working to fix existing bugs and update the website/hub a bit more so that we can present this to the public and hopefully find some funding via investment. We will probably end up moderating the hub and organizing it manually to make sure that the most usable and complete games are quickly accessible to new users. First impressions are key, as you know.

The Blue Book!
Some of you have wondered whether this book is worth purchasing. Obviously my recommendation is a conflict of interest (since I "make" a whopping $4 for each sale), but I will tell you this: it is without a doubt the most valuable resource for learning BYOND's language. Dan spent many months working very hard to write a software book for the masses, and I think he's done a mighty fine job. That book will be available soon-- in the meantime buy the Blue Book instead! (just kidding; the Blue Book is of course the product of his great labors).

We are not getting rich off this book or anything else for that matter. But the sales are important to us because they show that people are willing to spend money to both help themselves and help us out. These things bode well with investors interested in seeing how we might make money from this project. Also, the boxes of books are taking up a lot of space in my garage so it would be nice to unload them. If you buy a box (30 books), I'll even pay for shipping!

So, um, buy the book, if you can afford it. Yeah.

That's it for now. Carry on!

Anyone doing so with this lengthy post will be banned for life! Would it help to have separate "Reply" and "Reply with Quote" buttons? I was thinking that might be useful.

Hooray! I didn't quote it all this time! ;-)


The Blue Book!
We are not getting rich off this book or anything else for that matter. But the sales are important to us because they show that people are willing to spend money to both help themselves and help us out. These things bode well with investors interested in seeing how we might make money from this project. Also, the boxes of books are taking up a lot of space in my garage so it would be nice to unload them. If you buy a box (30 books), I'll even pay for shipping!

Have you thought of asking a bookstore if they would like to purchase some of your books? You would have to make a cheaper deal, of course, but imagine this:

"Joe Programmer is walking through the aisle, about to pick up that copy of Teach Yourself C++ in 21 Days, when suddenly, he sees a book; it is blue, and it catches his eye. It has the words Build Your Own Net Dream on it. What could be more appeasing?

He buys the book, he posts on the forum, and he learns BYOND in several weeks, and soon, he's writing a rockin' space adventure game that'd knock the socks off of the White House.

He tells his friends. Wary of the bookstore (after all, there's a lot of words in there), his friends assume purchasing online is that much safer. They buy the book, and get it in less than a week.

They tell their friends.


Joe Programmer is very, very happy. He doesn't know why he bothered with that C++ nonsense in the first place. He is so glad that he bought that Blue Book.

And, in so doing, he saved himself from the eternity of torture that is C++."
In response to Spuzzum

And, in so doing, he saved himself from the eternity of torture that is C++.

HEY! I resemble...er resent that remark...
*tosses one of his C++ references onto the 10' pile with the rest*

Though honestly, in C++ I can make games without banner ads *smirk*

okokok..don't kill me for that...

And don't worry guys, I won't stupidly request a 3d engine for BYOND...
In response to Abraxas
On 5/21/01 6:42 pm Abraxas wrote:
And, in so doing, he saved himself from the eternity of torture that is C++.

HEY! I resemble...er resent that remark...
*tosses one of his C++ references onto the 10' pile with the rest*

Though honestly, in C++ I can make games without banner ads *smirk*

okokok..don't kill me for that...

And don't worry guys, I won't stupidly request a 3d engine for BYOND...

I believe it's on The List to allow the game designer to turn off the banner.

Certainly that's desirable for certain MUDs...but since no one has finished a MUD yet, and since the banner is great for getting people to play your games, it's not too big a deal right now.

In other words, for standard parlor games like we've got, players use the banners to try out all the games. You may not like them, but your players probably do.
In response to Abraxas
On 5/21/01 6:42 pm Abraxas wrote:
And, in so doing, he saved himself from the eternity of torture that is C++.

HEY! I resemble...er resent that remark...
*tosses one of his C++ references onto the 10' pile with the rest*

Though honestly, in C++ I can make games without banner ads *smirk*

okokok..don't kill me for that...

And don't worry guys, I won't stupidly request a 3d engine for BYOND...

I still say someone oughta just make a 3d engine anyways. Feasibility schmeasibility! Who cares if it would be ridiculously buggy and run at approximately 0.062 FPS?
In response to Spuzzum
That's actually a really great idea. You could put a program disk in a sleeve in the front cover for just pennies more. Do you have any idea how many absolutely CRAPPY game engines I bought bundled together with a book in book stores and computer fairs? Would-be game programmers browsing the computer section of bookstores love those kinds of things... especially if you put on the cover "Doesn't require C++ or any external compilers/programs!"

Have you thought of asking a bookstore if they would like to purchase some of your books? You would have to make a cheaper deal, of course, but imagine this:
In response to Spuzzum
On 5/21/01 2:59 am Spuzzum wrote:

Have you thought of asking a bookstore if they would like to purchase some of your books?

Dan peddled some of them to a bookstore in Wisconsin, but they (like most places I'm sure) operate on consignment, meaning that we only see money if they make the sale. So far that hasn't happened. We haven't been too proactive, as you can see. Too busy.
In response to Leftley
It's not the bugs that would be the problem....see, it's tile-based, so you'd end up using a TILE to represent a pixel... mathematically it wouldn't be -too- bad..... you would have a VERY tiny and overpixelated viewscreen though!

The other choice would be to use a shell-based 3d engine written for byond which exports DMI files, which BYOND dynamically imports... THAT will work until you hit the limits of your hard drive, since you'd be getting 20-40 new dmi files per second...per user :P~~~~

(or, here comes the file control! LOL)

On 5/21/01 7:00 pm Leftley wrote:
On 5/21/01 6:42 pm Abraxas wrote:
And, in so doing, he saved himself from the eternity of torture that is C++.

HEY! I resemble...er resent that remark...
*tosses one of his C++ references onto the 10' pile with the rest*

Though honestly, in C++ I can make games without banner ads *smirk*

okokok..don't kill me for that...

And don't worry guys, I won't stupidly request a 3d engine for BYOND...

I still say someone oughta just make a 3d engine anyways. Feasibility schmeasibility! Who cares if it would be ridiculously buggy and run at approximately 0.062 FPS?
In response to Deadron

Certainly that's desirable for certain MUDs...but since no one has finished a MUD yet, and since the banner is great for getting people to play your games, it's not too big a deal right now.

In other words, for standard parlor games like we've got, players use the banners to try out all the games. You may not like them, but your players probably do.

What players? *wink*
I'm keeping my mud down low until I get enough of it done that it won't look like a cheezy alpha when I brag about it in the forums :P
In response to Deadron
I would say just keep the banner in, maybe someday you guys could make a lot of money off it. Im sure the when you start getting a lot of people playing byond games, you could make tons of money just off ads =).
In response to Ebonshadow
On 5/22/01 6:57 am Ebonshadow wrote:
I would say just keep the banner in, maybe someday you guys could make a lot of money off it. Im sure the when you start getting a lot of people playing byond games, you could make tons of money just off ads =).

Banner ads as a money-making model has never been a winning proposal in any class of online commerce... all they do for commercial sites is trim operating expenses, if that. The companies that operate on banner ads are mostly folding one-by-one, or adding user fees.

The real value of banner ads is the link exchange model. If my website/game/product is similar to your website/game/product, people who like mine will like yours. Obviously, we'll never make any money this way, because we're both "stealing customers" from each other, but if the goal is to get exposure instead of make money, it's a win-win situation.
In response to LexyBitch
That depends on how the banner ads pay. If they pay per view, dantom could make plenty money off it since it would be advertised on every byond game. I mean, when they got tons of people playing byond games. Some of those banner places pay per impression, which means they pay everytime somebody sees the banner, not click on it. So if 1000 people play byond games a day, thats 1000 impressions(i think they pay per unique impression). Thats not bad considering Im sure byond will have many more players than that, look at pogo and other places like that. All those people that sit there and waste their lifes away playing really really dumb games.
In response to LexyBitch
On 5/22/01 7:15 am LexyBitch wrote:
The real value of banner ads is the link exchange model. If my website/game/product is similar to your website/game/product, people who like mine will like yours. Obviously, we'll never make any money this way, because we're both "stealing customers" from each other, but if the goal is to get exposure instead of make money, it's a win-win situation.

The stealing customers thing is not true in the end, I think. I'm reminded of bookstores...a bookstore actually LIKES having a competing bookstore move in next door. Why? Because the higher the density of bookstores in an area (within reason of course), the more of a draw it is for people to go to that area to buy books, the more all the bookstores there sell.

I think it's the same for BYOND games...the more fun games people play, the more they will come to BYOND world and tell their friends about it, the more all our games will get played.
In response to Abraxas
On 5/22/01 4:42 am Abraxas wrote:
In other words, for standard parlor games like we've got, players use the banners to try out all the games. You may not like them, but your players probably do.

What players? *wink*

I log everytime any of my games are played. I haven't looked at the logs in the last month or so (I'm scared of how big they probably are now), but last time I checked, several new people a day were checking out the games I'm involved in, and several previous players were coming back. It was getting to the dozens per week, which I was quite happy with.

Now I have no illusions about why this is...it's mostly because of a couple of high-traffic games (Ebon's and one of the others) which bring in players, those players see the banners and check out the other games.
In response to Tom

Dan peddled some of them to a bookstore in Wisconsin

Actually, I forgot about that! I should go find out...

In response to Deadron
That's what I'm talking about, though... in general, few bookstores operate on a "Buy or get out!" mentality these days... they know that if you come in 10 times and only buy something once, that's still one more time than if they chased you out the first time you visited. What bookstores like to swap is people who are there to browse. That's the model on which banner ads do work... and granted, 1 time out of X, someone might buy something from a commercial sight they clicked on from a banner ad... but the measurable income generated by the banner ad will be nil. It basically attracts a lot of browsers. Good for bookstores, good for gaming communities, bad for serious moolah raking business.

I'm not saying banner ads aren't good for the Byond community. I'm saying, in fact, that they're great. But not because they bring in the dough. What they bring in is people.

On 5/22/01 8:32 am Deadron wrote:
On 5/22/01 7:15 am LexyBitch wrote:
The real value of banner ads is the link exchange model. If my website/game/product is similar to your website/game/product, people who like mine will like yours. Obviously, we'll never make any money this way, because we're both "stealing customers" from each other, but if the goal is to get exposure instead of make money, it's a win-win situation.

The stealing customers thing is not true in the end, I think. I'm reminded of bookstores...a bookstore actually LIKES having a competing bookstore move in next door. Why? Because the higher the density of bookstores in an area (within reason of course), the more of a draw it is for people to go to that area to buy books, the more all the bookstores there sell.

I think it's the same for BYOND games...the more fun games people play, the more they will come to BYOND world and tell their friends about it, the more all our games will get played.