Jp wrote:

Client-side DM stuff might make it possible to do it

(...)it'll be an esoteric feature to 95% of the client base for DM, and the remaining 5% don't have the special knowledge required to make full use of it.

I beg to differ.
Client sided operations can be (and likely would be) very useful. If nobody could grasp the concept, then I wonder why Tom added support for client sided dynamic HTML in version 441.
I love that feature, it can be used for a multitude of solutions and I assure you that especially client sided graphic handling support open a nice new way to enhance a game (e.g. a true mini map).

Gakumerasara wrote:

I guess no one realized that there's already a way to do client-side processing on BYOND?
http://www.byond.com/developer/Gakumerasara/ Client-SideProcessingDemo

Seen it, done it, wrote my own code.

It's an interesting experience. Troublesome at times, but fun.

It is no substitution for TRUE client side processing though. I'm not saying you couldn't make a good game with it, but it still isn't the same.

Popisfizzy wrote:

Good to see your understand both priorities and prior problems.

Good to see your making sense as usual.
I don't remember saying it was a priority, or anything at all about priorities, but its nice to know the voices in your head think it is one... or isn't... I can't really tell what you're trying to say.
I wasn't even posting it as a feature request or anything of the sort, just pointing out that BYOND lags, and explaining how other games don't.
Also, good to know you think Lummox is a "prior problem"...?

Which is honestly not very surprising.

Not sure if that was supposed to be a swing at me or what, but if it was it didn't make much sense.
Good job attempting to flame, but please try to refrain from passing your incompetence off on others.

Here's what you should ask yourself before posting:
Does this post I'm about to make contribute in any (preferably constructive) way to the conversation?
The answer to about 99% of your posts is no, but you know, try and keep that in mind for next time.

Popisfizzy wrote:

Anyways, let me simplify this for you. I know concepts of Boolean algebra, so vastly confusing as it is, are over your head

Shall I spend 10 minutes learning it so you can look like even more of an ass? I will if it will make you feel better.

Now, I know you think that Lummox doesn't know what he's talking about and that you blame lumox's crap work on BYOND going downhill, but he is, infact, vastly more intelligent than you, and despite some of the things he and Tom are doing that I don't agree with, they know much more what they want and what they think they're doing than you could.

Yup, I was clearly just as good a programmer almost 3 years ago as I am today. Unlike you, some of us actually improve our skills over time.
At that point I was pretty much 100% self taught, almost entirely from working with BYOND, so any bad habits you want to point out from back then you can blame on the engine/community.
Also, if you want to play the make each other look like retards game I'll gladly spend another 10 minutes finding much more recent posts of yours that prove your incompetence.
And did you see BYOND 4.0 when it first came out? The thing was quite literally unusable. Lummox has managed to break practically every system in existence at one point or another, and 90% of them were all in an semi-functional (at best) state for several months at its first release.
And nowadays I don't blame Lummox's (or others') work on the software so much. They've made a few major improvements, and several minor ones, with very few downsides... besides all the bugs he likes to make =P
Its the website that has been steadily decreasing in functionality, usability, and overall design since I first joined. You have to jump through hoops just to browse games nowadays, when that should practically be the homepage. Almost everything is over complicated, links are mixed in with plain text, the colors are clearly geared towards anime central, even the main guilds provide varied layouts making it difficult to find things... etc etc etc.
Also, you know those links you posted point to the same page right? If you want to point to a specific post you should put &single=1 on the end of the link.
Also also, the point he's making in those links you posted there is invalid, so I don't see why you're bringing it up for your defense.

It is, because you are so ignorant of how programming works that you fail to realize implementing client-side programming is more than just "lol i wan dis so ima gunna chek dis hre box!1!11!!!!", and therefore would not be able to be utilized by the 95% of BYOND Jp mentioned.

It should indeed be that simple. Though most of us don't talk as retarded-like as the voices in your head apparently do.
The whole point of having an engine is just that, simplicity, so you can click the little check box and it will handle everything for you.
If BYOND didn't already do that on 99% of everything then there would be very little point in even using it.

Falacy wrote:

Shall I spend 10 minutes learning it so you can look like even more of an ass?

Ugh, seriously, you're hopeless. Boolean algebra is a direct analogue of Boolean logic. Duh on you for that.

Yup, I was clearly just as good a programmer almost 3 years ago as I am today. Unlike you, some of us actually improve our skills over time.

Oh, you're so naive and loathe me so much that you're probably the only person in the community, aside from Kaioken and a few dumb newbies, that seriously seems to think I'm completely incompetent. Chances are, if I were to post code somewhere that Garthor wrote, you would call it bad code simply because *I* posted it and because he and I have similar styles of writing code, such is your delusion and hatred for me. In any case, if you've improved, based on the code I've seen from you, it's incredibly marginal.

At that point I was pretty much 100% self taught

As was I. I've taken two programming courses (only one at the time of that post), and all of what I learned was simply learning the syntax of a new programming language (COBOL or RPG. I forget.) And, given that the computer science course at my high school taught me nothing, and that I was a better programming than my teacher, I am still completely self-taught.

almost entirely from working with BYOND, so any bad habits you want to point out from back then you can blame on the engine/community.

Instead of blaming them on yourself? It's your fault from learning from a rip, which is the only 'community' you could've learned from. At that time, I knew only DM, COBOL, and some RPG. Anyone who's programmed the latter two languages knows what I say when I say they have no relevance to most modern languages.

Also, if you want to play the make each other look like retards game I'll gladly spend another 10 minutes finding much more recent posts of yours that prove your incompetence.

Have fun. I could think of maybe two posts where I've posted poor code recently (As in, this summer. I can think of another you'd likely jump to which was written sometime last year, and it was a minor error). All of your code, though, shows you could never program professionally.

And did you see BYOND 4.0 when it first came out? The thing was quite literally unusable. Lummox has managed to break practically every system in existence at one point or another, and 90% of them were all in an semi-functional (at best) state for several months at its first release.

Right, because a major change of many, many things with only a small amount of testing possible (The staff and the people in the private forums could never do as much testing as the whole community, or break things like the rest of the community because they are good programmings) means that they're poor programmers.

And nowadays I don't blame Lummox's (or others') work on the software so much. They've made a few major improvements, and several minor ones, with very few downsides... besides all the bugs he likes to make =P

But you still called his work crappy, so this is a pitiful attempt at defending yourself. I doubt that he's written poor code any time during his use of BYOND.

Its the website that has been steadily decreasing in functionality, usability, and overall design since I first joined. You have to jump through hoops just to browse games nowadays, when that should practically be the homepage. Almost everything is over complicated, links are mixed in with plain text, the colors are clearly geared towards anime central, even the main guilds provide varied layouts making it difficult to find things... etc etc etc.

I have no problems, but then again I play few games, and also know how to get around quickly to find things, even if it's not direct.

Also, you know those links you posted point to the same page right? If you want to point to a specific post you should put &single=1 on the end of the link.

I don't use thread view because it is absolutely terrible. It would be nice if #[id here] were appended to the URL automatically.

Also also, the point he's making in those links you posted there is invalid, so I don't see why you're bringing it up for your defense.

If you think that, I'd imagine your games are absolutely terribly designed. src should be the victim because the victim's proc should be determining if they die. Doing src.DeathCheck(usr or m or whatever) is an ass-backwards way of doing it, and the same with usr.DeathCheck(src or whatever).

It should indeed be that simple.

Which just really shows your ignorance in regards to any client-server model. Admittedly, I don't know much, but hell, I definitely know more than you.

The whole point of having an engine is just that, simplicity, so you can click the little check box and it will handle everything for you.

Just because an engine is mostly simple doesn't mean everything is simple. Not everything can be simplified either, and the end-result is either that some things are completely removed or are left complex. I suppose you think something like bitshifting (not terribly complex as it is, though) should be limited to a checkbox and have everything work out, eh? Some things are just conceptually complex to add, and will always be complex, regardless of the implementation, unless the implementation is limited. That's how programming works.

If BYOND didn't already do that on 99% of everything then there would be very little point in even using it.

BYOND doesn't do as much as you seem to think it does, even if it already does quite a bit.

Falacy wrote:

Its the website that has been steadily decreasing in functionality, usability, and overall design since I first joined. You have to jump through hoops just to browse games nowadays, when that should practically be the homepage.

Homepage shouldn't be used for browsing games. It should be used to introduce users into the site so they know what they're looking at. It should also provide information on the software and it's capabilities.

How you came to the conclusion that browsing games is difficult is also beyond me. I don't consider two clicks to get here to be "jumping through hoops". Considering the website back in '03 had the same amount of clicks to get to Unpublished Games (Games Live -> Unpublished Games).

Jp wrote:

I don't see why it would require anything at all from the developers. Maybe just a simple option to choose whether you want it the way it is now, or pre client sided.

Things in those games are processed on the client, then on the server, synced, and sent back to be reprocessed.
Basically its showing you the futureeee. The only problem with that is that if things aren't keeping up the way they should be you end up with a "rubber band" effect.
I don't see why it would need to be setup on a per-game basis.

The way these things work is very game-specific - what sort of actions are client-side, how to snap things back, what it should look like client-side, how to tell whether it's a legal action, etc. This is not the sort of thing that can be worked out for a developer, I'm afraid. Netcode is hard.

Even a simple client-side processing model - not doing the whole TF2 thing, just letting us run stuff on the client - would require mutexes to be added to the language, I believe. And some hack to handle the asynchronous nature of the call - maybe the result comes back through Topic() or something.

Wouldn't you need more than one thread to have a mutex? Or would the mutex lock up the main thread? Why would the mutex lock up the main thread?

Popisfizzy wrote:

Oh, you're so naive and loathe me so much that you're probably the only person in the community, aside from Kaioken and a few dumb newbies, that seriously seems to think I'm completely incompetent.

For the record, I don't think you're incompetent at all. I think that you're often a bastard, but still competent. ;)