ID:1837741
 
So I've recently been informed that the reason users are no longer notified as to who or why their posts were deleted is because APPARENTLY the mods don't like being called out (or something to that effect). And I must say, I disagree strongly with this decision. And not just because it's a slippery slope to "mods are [National Socialists] but because it's harmful to community health. And I wouldn't be surprised if this post ALSO gets deleted (because [National Socialists]).

I don't know about you, but I feel like mods delete posts as a way of pruning the forums of unnecessary information and in doing so kind of suck the words of a user right out of the air. But without notifying the original poster and not being required to state why (or if they're required to do so for other mods, not being required to tell the poster why) or even being inconsistent in their methods (some posts get locked, others get deleted), we run into several issues which are foundations for a strong rule enforcement in society.

1. Inconsistent Enforcement
Why are some posts locked instead of just flat out deleted? Is there a discussion length in which it is easier to just lock the thread instead of delete it outright? They also address different issues. A locked thread may be viewed, so the content remains but the users may not respond in that thread any longer. The solution of course is to create a new thread, but who's to say that there were no longer any productive arguments to be made? The mod of course, and if you wanted to continue such a thread but you'd have to make a new thread and reference the previous thread in your first post. On the other hand, deleting a thread outright is a different issue altogether. The content that was generated is just removed. It's a way to silence an entire set of viewpoints. So what would mark the line of deleting a thread vs. locking a thread. I would think that the mods should delete threads that go against the posting guidelines, but that's not the case. Spam is frequently tolerated or interpreted as something else while other things that aren't genuine spam are deleted because... reasons? (I also note that one of my threads has been deleted as I check for examples of inconsistent pruning and while I can understand why it was removed from a mod perspective, I personally wouldn't have removed it if I were a mod viewing someone else's post). A thread should be locked when the key voices are no longer going back-and-forth with the arguments, but I've seen on several occasions that threads are more likely to be locked if they state limitations of BYOND or recommend other platforms while favoritism is played towards BYOND's white knights. It's not an objective issue, it's a subjective issue.

2. Not notifying the user
As I stated before, BYOND no longer notifies user about their posts being deleted or gives a reason as to why. This is a problem on two fronts. The first problem is that the user doesn't know why their content was deleted. If the whole goal of deleting posts is to keep negative light from being shed on BYOND from a guest perspective, then why would you not let the user know why their post was deleted, which may prevent them from posting similar content in the future? It makes no sense.

3. Fear of Recognition
This is one I find extremely odd, that is, mods not wanting to be recognized for their actions. It strikes me as odd because it's an issue of accountability. Being able to view the votes in congress is common sense. It's so we can hold congressmen accountable for their actions. Police officers have badge numbers, every where you go there is some way of linking actions to their perpetrators. But BYOND seems to have taken an odd stance that they don't want mods to be linked to their actions. I'm guessing the issue arose because people were calling out specific moderators for deleting their posts, but was that so bad? Every general election there are a number of commercials that go out and point out recent actions of politicians and discuss whether or not this is a person you want in power. And I recognize that it's a pretty hefty leap from BYOND mod to congressman, but the idea is the same. And the way the community is treated is how the community grows to be what it is. And we all like to blame anime and fangames for BYOND's community reputation, but it runs deeper than that.

It's not uncommon for people to complain that the mods on these fangames are rude, oppressive, and outright unbearable. They often complain that they were booted for no reason, abuse of power in the way of mutes, and being a "staff" member giving you unfair advantages. But is this so different from BYOND's recent approach to modding? Deleting your thread without so much as a howsy do sounds like a mute for no reason to me. Even if there was a good reason, and if both parties know the reason, that's no excuse for the mod to not state the reason. Because otherwise, you can quickly run into the issue of trying to retroactively "fit the rules to the crime" instead of the crime being against the rules in the first place.

My suggestion, if you don't want the mods to be held accountable, you could assign them numbers that would show up when deleting or locking posts. Or you could at least notify the user of the reason their posts were modded. At least by giving a reason, you let the user know which behaviors were not acceptable (even if you're going to be inconsistent about which behaviors are acceptable and which aren't).

EDIT: Post created at 4:20 on 4/20 B)
I think the main reason you're not notified anymore is due to Tue backlash and harassment they receive when doing such actions..
In response to A.T.H.K
In that case, at the very least notifying the user with the reason (while leaving out the mod's key) is a solution. Or, like I also suggested, identifying mods by a number instead of their key (hopefully a 4-5 digit number or something. Don't be that dope numbering mods 1, 2, 3, ...)
I've never seen a mod delete or lock something that shouldn't have been, tbh.
In response to Super Saiyan X
Super Saiyan X wrote:
I've never seen a mod delete or lock something that shouldn't have been, tbh.

In response to Super Saiyan X
Falacy and GalacticSoldier would have some choice words for you :D

The point isn't that the mods are deleting posts that they shouldn't have (though I personally feel that they are inconsistent with their choices). The point is (at this time) there is no way to know which posts of yours were deleted for which reasons and there's no one to be held accountable. I don't care if mod 1234 deleted my post. What I care is why, and I'm sure that many users share these sentiments.
I think the posting guidelines layout perfectly why a post might have been deleted:
Being a jerk.
Being vulgar.
Being a troll.
Spamming.

Tom removed the notification on moderator actions, probably because he was tired of seeing the incessant and pointless backlash from repeat offenders. If a moderator feels the need to contact you regarding the content of your posts, they will. If not, suck it up. BYOND holds the right to remove any content they decide to.
In response to Super Saiyan X
Super Saiyan X wrote:
I think the posting guidelines layout perfectly why a post might have been deleted:
Being a jerk.
Being vulgar.
Being a troll.
Spamming.

Yet there are several posts on off topic right now that I could argue would fit those criterion. I would assume that the mods deleted the "hiring donators" post as well (though I don't know for sure), and I'm not sure that it fit any of those criterion. I think the guy was genuine in his post so he wasn't spamming, being a troll, being vulgar, or being a jerk.

I agree, lynch the Nazi mods and make Eugene the new community manager.
In response to Super Saiyan X
Super Saiyan X wrote:
Being a jerk.


A-lot of the developer help posts are long over due for deletion then.
Anyway, we have a nice group of moderators right now. I don't think any of them are abusive or bias.

Now all we need is, a programmer, a hard headed programmer that doesn't fall in line, only a hard head can change the world. With programmers like that to help enrich the community with his/her wisdom without being a douche bag, things can look up for the more creative side of this wonderful community.

But usually the hardheaded people with ambitions and promise are silenced like FA, and Fal.

There are a-lot of candidates who've studied hard for such skill, but would rather do absolutely, nothing with it.
In response to Super Saiyan X
Super Saiyan X wrote:
Tom removed the notification on moderator actions, probably because he was tired of seeing the incessant and pointless backlash from repeat offenders. If a moderator feels the need to contact you regarding the content of your posts, they will. If not, suck it up. BYOND holds the right to remove any content they decide to.

I have 2 comments to say to this. First, just having the right doesn't mean it should be used excessively. I have the right to shout I love Canada in public, but if I do it excessively, I will probably get arrested for "disturbing the peace". If BYOND wants to take the stance "we'll delete anything we don't like and we don't care" (as they have in the past with Falacy) it makes current and future users think whether or not they want to be a member of this community. These are some of the reasons that I've personally drifted from BYOND and I think it's part of the reason that the forums have become troll contests. Second, if BYOND mods are deleting your posts and they don't feel the need to contact you about the content, then they obviously didn't have a very good reason to delete your post. If they could label some content of your post that was against the posting guidelines, then they had a good reason.
Well I got my Oreos and milk now, so if the mods could respond to this thread with something highly condescending and infuriating to get this shit-storm started, that'd be great.
Mods can't not be biased. They're human. Humans will always have an opinion on everything. It's also not easy being a moderator. Having some experience moderating a group of other humans, it really isn't an easy task, especially when some of the users actively test the limits of the moderator.

Secondly, the forums aren't governed by a set of laws (except whichever country it's hosted). There are simply guidelines. That being said, there's always some leeway with how moderators take actions. I can definitely relate that a moderator wouldn't want any backlash from deleting or locking a thread or post, because from what I have seen in these forums, people tend to react very badly to these things.

Another important note is that these forums are public to everyone. Anyone can see them. Even those who are not members of BYOND. Moderators must regulate the forums so that they appeal to the public eye. BYOND needs to maintain a good image for both insiders and outsiders. It might not seem fair at times, but for the most part, moderators are looking at the bigger picture.

On a personal note, I myself regulate my own content when I post on the forums. BYOND's guidelines are kept at a PG-13 level because of the wide array of ages on the site. I'm okay with this. I don't really post here to socialize. I post here to show progress on my projects, provide developer help, and maybe get a laugh or two while I'm here. I'm always looking at the forums, though not quite posting very often.

I consider myself a part of the community as a developer. I've played around with BYOND since '04, didn't really get serious about programming until '09, and have been mastering DM ever since. If a moderator happens to delete a post of mine, usually they give me a reason (a slip of a curse word usually warrants something like that), but for the most part they know that I mean well for BYOND.
In response to Mr_Goober
Mr_Goober wrote:
Mods can't not be biased. They're human. Humans will always have an opinion on everything.

Then get some robots in here. #ProblemSolved.

I can definitely relate that a moderator wouldn't want any backlash from deleting or locking a thread or post, because from what I have seen in these forums, people tend to react very badly to these things.

"Very badly" is an understatement. Lige can confirm this.

BYOND needs to maintain a good image for both insiders and outsiders.

The "maintaining a good image" ship sailed the moment we did away with the Unpublished section and allowed a massive number of rips plus Narto GOA and Dragon Ball <insert "rebirth", "vengeance", or "return of cell's tentacle" here> to be the first bunch of games people see when they look at our live games list.

On a personal note, I myself regulate my own content when I post on the forums.

Good Guy Goober. That's your new name from now on.
Obviously most of us older folk that use the forums have to have some kind of "content control". I'm a feisty one in general, if I said most of the stuff I actually thought, I would probably be banned from a number of websites. I'm actually on the edge of being banned from a few (possibly this one as well) for being very vocal.

And I don't buy the "public image" argument. Some of the more popular websites, especially newsfeeds (4chan, reddit, 9gag to name a few) have very limited moderation. Reddit in particular has very little in the way of content control and they seem to do just fine.
Nothing is impossible, not even nothing being impossible is possible, it all depends on the situation at hand, and how much time you have to make something possible; but sometimes things just happen so you probably wont even need time to make it possible, so it boils down to probable.

Anyways, with that said, a few people stepped down making the moderators of BYOND look good again, as long as Stephen remains missing in action, they're probably not on a bias delete, banning, and edit streak. I feel like they're more reasonable right now, and are in a good spot and shouldn't be bothered with.

Coming from me of all people, if I'm saying it, things are looking up and we shouldn't have to worry about it.

There are far more important things we could be doing as a community, to make their job easier, and all the game developers on BYOND's dream easier to be brought to life.
Lugia. Shut up. Seriously. You're worse than people who constantly protest for change when there's no need for change. Primarily because the problem isn't the thing they want to change. The problem is themselves.

I've only had about 3 posts removed out of the hundreds, if not thousands, of posts I've made. And that's primarily because I was joking and I escalated things in such a fashion that were anyone else to read the post it would probably be taken wrongly. The thing is, I was joking towards someone I knew closely for years.

Quit whining. It's a change that stops arguments. You're just spawning another argument by making this post, nerd. They have good intentions when it comes to removing posts. If anything, people should be banned a bit more seriously. I can't see any newcomers taking you guys seriously anymore. And I truly mean that.
In response to Dakumonki
Dakumonki wrote:
Super Saiyan X wrote:
Being a jerk.


A-lot of the developer help posts are long over due for deletion then.

No. That's just called being blunt. Very rarely is anything a literal jerk.

http://www.byond.com/ forum/?post=1740094&page=4#comment13386049 - That's being a jerk.
Thanks Xirre for stepping in and getting the shit-storm ball rolling. Those were some pretty decent shots you just fired at Lugia.

Let's see what Lugia can come back with, because I'm sure he isn't just going to roll over and take it. Gonna go grab some more Oreos while he forms a rebuttal.
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