Ever since I was too young to legally sign up for my own accounts on sites like BYOND, I was addicted. I started off with Chao Chatterz, and quickly left it for the infamous Space Station 13. When I first joined BYOND I was below my the average reading level for my age significantly, and within four months of joining I was a nine-year-old reading two and three hundred page chapter books. Roleplaying games on BYOND helped me become the reader and writer I am today. Once I started learning more about computers from my Dad, I became interested in the aspects of games here as more than just a player. I started off as an administrator on an SS13 server I can't remember the name of, and dabbled in modifying the open-source code for it. I quickly learned leadership skills because of working on SS13 servers and started my own. It was fairly successful for a while, but my dwindling time killed it away. I came back a few months later and started another, which lasted for a little under a year. While none of my servers lasted more than a year, and I never made any original BYOND games that got an attention; what BYOND did for me was great.
In the spirit of helping others, just like so many on BYOND helped me, I'm going to start providing help to aspiring BYOND developers that seek it out. It's going to be primarily financial, in terms of providing hosting and other services that would allow a developer to better syndicate their creation. Below this is a list of some of the things I intend to offer to developers that I work with:
-Free game server hosting
-Free website setup and hosting
-Private GitHub repository
-Other helpful services not listed
Not every developer is going to be extended every option immediately. My continued support of your project is totally reliant on your making progress on your game. I'm not going to set a specific standard of progress seeing as every project is different, but if you at least communicate with me and don't be a stranger, then chances are I won't be strict on the kind of progress I'm expecting to see. I will never charge for my services if your game is not making any profit, and will never expect payment for the services I've done for you up to when your game becomes profitable. All I ask is that if you begin to make a decent profit, please be honest and tell me so I can either help you begin to make other arrangements to make room for others to get help or pay me a very reasonable, negotiable fee.
BYOND Developer Support GitHub: https://github.com/orgs/byond-dev/
I will soon be making a site to showcase games that are a part of this jump-starter program.
ID:1857640
 May 23 2015, 10:03 pm
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What ATHK said. I don't think you've really looked at the finer details of this sort of project. The concept is great, the execution so far is flawed.
I think your best bet would be to follow what PopLava tried, but expand on it a bit more. Instead of specifically targetting a group of projects, use a general domain and provide libraries and demos to assist a wide range of projects and then provide free hosting based on a per-project need (of course, just follow your guideline and check the progress of the game. A game that isn't really solid yet doesn't need a website, host, etc. unless it's trying to bring in more developers to go forward. Whereas, a game that's almost complete and it needs a standing ground to get the attention of the public with test servers and an initial website for getting it's name out there.). Or, you could set a standard base. Create a generic engine with basic things, and have libraries that are specifically designed for that base come as extra options. Then give the developer a free month or so of hosting, regardless of game progression (because the developer themselves should know if they need their project hosted yet or not, and then if they use up the free month it's tough luck for them and they should use more wisdom on development first instead of hosting). More on the base engine: Just create something with the standards like Login, Saving/Loading, etc. Then have other libraries that are complete plug'n'play with easily changed configuration settings to switch from a 2D Sidescroller to a 3/4 Zelda-esque action/RPG, or whatnot. Basically the same thing BYOND is already doing, but be more specific on your own engine. That way there's less compatibility and faster progression for those who aren't as savvy or experienced. | |
A.T.H.K wrote:
What you're doing is great, but really? Really, what? Let me stop you right there, I'm going to base it on the honor system. I'm going to continue to provide the services I elect to offer someone to them until the time I feel they're not making enough effort to progress their game, until they're honest with me and tell me they no longer need the services rendered free because their game is actually profitable, or until I feel that I've given them enough to help them out to the point where they need to take things over themselves. In the first and third cases, a notice will be given of my discontinuing my "sponsorship" of their game well in advanced. How much are we talking here, you've stated no terms, 2% 20% 100%? I don't expect any percentage of game profits or percentage of ownership. Any and all possible future fees will be determined based on the cost of the resources allocated. Server hosting, CPU RAM HDD BW? All of this is dependent on the project other than the GitHub one. I've already posted a link to the GitHub organization all privates repos are going to be under. The only people that will have access to source in that organization is myself, and the people the developer gives permission to access it. Other than that, I can say with confidence that my dedicated servers have way more than enough resources to host any BYOND server or BYOND game site. What's stopping you from stealing anyone's source? Don't say "because I'm a nice guy" do you have a legally binding contract stating that this information is the users and solely the users? There's nothing stopping me from stealing someone's sources. The only person that will have access to a games private repo besides the developer is myself unless the developer specifically adds someone to have access. I will not be drawing up contracts as no contract I would be capable of making would be thorough enough to not have loopholes that could be used against either myself or the other party. If someone doesn't trust me to not steal their source codes, then they don't have to accept my offer of a private GitHub repo. | |
Maximus_Alex2003 wrote:
What ATHK said. I don't think you've really looked at the finer details of this sort of project. The concept is great, the execution so far is flawed. The execution isn't flawed at all. I'm not trying to start a non-profit organization with the sole intent of being a developer startup center. I'm just using my economic position to provide support to developers that may or may not be able to afford all the resources I'm offering to them. I think your best bet would be to follow what PopLava tried, but expand on it a bit more. Instead of specifically targetting a group of projects, use a general domain and provide libraries and demos to assist a wide range of projects and then provide free hosting based on a per-project need (of course, just follow your guideline and check the progress of the game. A game that isn't really solid yet doesn't need a website, host, etc. unless it's trying to bring in more developers to go forward. Whereas, a game that's almost complete and it needs a standing ground to get the attention of the public with test servers and an initial website for getting it's name out there.). I'm not great at DM programming. I've already stated that I'm just trying to help out developers get the projects they're working on off the ground. Making and maintaining a website that provides libraries and other resources would require too much time on my behalf because then I would be inclined to do work other than the things I already do day-to-day. Like servers, I already maintain my dedicated servers so providing stable hosting for others is not an issue because I already have and maintain secure servers. Or, you could set a standard base. Create a generic engine with basic things, and have libraries that are specifically designed for that base come as extra options. Then give the developer a free month or so of hosting, regardless of game progression (because the developer themselves should know if they need their project hosted yet or not, and then if they use up the free month it's tough luck for them and they should use more wisdom on development first instead of hosting). That's not what I want to do. I'm not trying to create the next big game development engine. As I've stated, I just want to help developers be better motivated to work on their own projects with skills and resources I already possess. | |
This doesn't sound like a symbiotic relationship. Sounds like a parasitic one.
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Ter13 wrote:
This doesn't sound like a symbiotic relationship. Sounds like a parasitic one. So sue me. I'm simply stating that in the future I plan to go around, find developers that have been doing active work on projects, and give them additional resources to further their projects. If someone doesn't trust me, they don't have to accept my help. | |
Well, I don't see why people are bashing him when he's actually trying to be helpful. We don't see this often around here and what you should all note is that the classified ad section is full of people looking for hosts. There are many ways people can steal other's people work and this could be one way but then again, people build a reputation based on what they do in the community and how long they've been there.
I'm sure many would have trusted ATHK or Ter13 if he advertised for something like this. It's all a matter of trust here. This is a great idea and I'll be the first to join you Magicmann on my future projects. | |
I'll answer for myself here, I wasn't "bashing" I was asking for more information.
It is a good idea, sure. One full of holes however. I just feel like he's going to micro manage you and your game, or feel as he some much power over you he can easily steal, shutdown or even blackmail anyone using his services. I can see it going a bit like this, U Band Me From YOR Gamez iz Hosting yr shit man I'll leak your sorce unless u unabnz me NOWS! | |
Again, that is true if it was some random person who joined. Would you say the same if forum_accounts for example came by and said he's offering those services? I do know, he actually needs contracts and legal stuff in order for both sides to be safe but I think this is a great deal for people who needs some testing in their early development stages or for small tools that needs a server. Nothing big.
Anyways, I understand your opinion. It's all a matter of trust in this case. | |
An easier solution:
http://www.byond.com/games/Xirre/ShellServer | |
Kidpaddle45 wrote:
Anyways, I understand your opinion. It's all a matter of trust in this case. Isn't it always? Besides that ultimately it'll be the way he handles situations and himself when things get a bit crazy if they do get crazy. We all know that BYOND has a bunch of kids who think they can get away with and do whatever they want and that'll be an issue mostly 90% of the time. Take BYONDPanel for instance, I have many fantastic great loyal customers, then I have the kids who think a charge back is hilarious even though over all the cost of the service is 95% of what they pay and then PayPal unauthorised fees are the cost of 5 months from my so called "profits" off other services leaving me next to no profit.. | |
I agree, ATHK.
Regardless, Magicmann, there are a lot of legal and financial tickets that many people overlook. Something as simple as a "I'm going to help someone with hosting their stuff!" brings a heap of possible legal issues and financial issues. If, for example, you were assisting someone with their project by offering to host their project and setup a website for them and lets say they decided to switch their project to Dragonball/Z/GT. Well, now since you agreed to assit them without any terms of service you have to keep up with it until eventually you're given a C&D DMCA from FUNimation or your ISP. FUNimation probably not as bad. Your ISP may or may not blacklist you as a "do not offer service to this guy" sort of deal. Now lets say you decide "no dice bro, not helping anymore" without something like terms of service setup. Well now you're looking at a potential small-claims lawsuit since you agreed, without setting guidelines, that you were to host/assist them with their game development and you're now backing off of your agreement and the other party is not receiving the services that was promised to them. Your first step, Magicmann, should be to look into business management and at least some sort of intro into business-type law. Yes, BYOND is lovingly a hobby-ist center. But, BYOND is also not specifically a hobby-ist center. BYOND doesn't have any sort of standardized "If you use our software/website to assist others, we will protect you regardless of how many pre-teen adolescents to fully grown adults decide to take business more seriously than you wanted." You're not the first to think of the ideal. Try not to be the next to fail. | |
Yeah totally agree with you on the bunch of kids part :P
and I just noticed that Magiccman isn't "The Magic Man"! xD I still want to work with him and get his support, he wants to help the BYOND community and I'm sure we can find a way to work together and get things done quicker. | |
Kidpaddle45 wrote:
Yeah totally agree with you on the bunch of kids part :P It's a lovely ideal, don't get me wrong. I just don't see any sort of base setup yet and it's already being advertised publicly. This is not a good scenario. I can only smell the inevitable "kickstarter prerelease failure" happening. When something gets pre-released or publicly announced before any and all fallback procedures are in place, and then problems and issues come out of the woodwork and create a domino affect that will eventually crash the entire system. Build your base setup first. Then host the ceremony in your castle after. Don't build your castle without your base. | |
Kidpaddle45 wrote:
I'm sure many would have trusted ATHK or Ter13 if he advertised for something like this. It's all a matter of trust here. To speak for myself here, I would never be narcissistic enough to put myself out there in this way. Take this as an insult if you like, but here's the reality of this situation. MM is more or less offering to assert creative and financial control over people using his services. Much like ATHK, I have my concerns that this is a parasitic and potentially damaging arrangement to enter into. When you take on a potential business relationship, the last thing you want is someone requesting access to your finances and future goals unless they are a potential buyer or investor. My ISP has no business telling me where or when to work, and no business checking my finances in order to determine how much I should pay. That's just not how a service relationship works, which is why I chimed in that this was only destined to become a negative relationship for any game involved, regardless of the character of the individual at the helm. ATHK has an exceptionally "bad" rep for his BYONDPanel services despite the fact that the majority of his customers are more than happy with the service. I've personally wound up in situations where I've actually fielded support inquiries on ATHK's behalf because a number of his customers were simply too incompetent to realize that BYONDPanel isn't associated with BYOND itself, and that the little green star by my name doesn't mean I'm a moderator. Let me be absolutely clear here: Each and every one of those conversations was painful, unprofessional, and borderline rage-inducing no matter how much milk and honey I sent their way. I have the utmost of sympathy and respect for what ATHK does, and despite the fact that he and I have clashed publicly and privately over the years, he and I have a mature, respectful if not overly close relationship with one another. I agree fully with ATHK's opinion on the matter. And stand behind him as someone offering a genuine service, and someone who has a very good idea of ethical behavior regarding a service relationship. MM's trying to sell a parasitic relationship as a symbiotic one, and I decided not to respond further because of the lack of maturity of the responses to criticism. I didn't feel this conversation had anywhere positive to go were I to chip in further, so I silently bowed out. I trust ATHK's judgement on the matter. This has all the makings of an abusive business relationship. | |
Ter13 wrote:
ATHK has an exceptionally "bad" rep for his BYONDPanel services despite the fact that the majority of his customers are more than happy with the service. That's partly my fault and the kids (again, as they lash out at the most simplest things). Mostly mine and it's probably because of the way I act or acted here at least in the past. I just need to make it clear that my words are my own here on the forums and not a representation of BYONDPanel.com and it's services, the two do not need to be interlocked at all, this is after all a personal account I've had for years before BYONDPanel.com even existed. I've asked in the past to have an official BYONDPanel key set up here but it was never actioned, I fully understand why too. Anyway back on topic. | |
I appreciate the vote of confidence, Kidpaddle45.
A.T.H.K wrote: I just feel like he's going to micro manage you and your game, or feel as he some much power over you he can easily steal, shutdown or even blackmail anyone using his services. If you haven’t noticed, I’ve already stated that I am merely providing free services with the expectation that the developers make some form of effort to further their own games. I have no interest in trying to sway the direction of others games’. I’ve tried making BYOND games before, and I failed. I don’t feel the need to try and be involved directly in the creation of games. If I want to make a game, I’ll be patient and start from the ground up like everyone else. I can see it going a bit like this, U Band Me From YOR Gamez iz Hosting yr shit man I'll leak your sorce unless u unabnz me NOWS! That’s nice deary. You’re always being so pessimistic on the BYOND forums and stating how you think continued dedication to it is pointless; yet you continue to dedicate time to it. Why? Probably because you want something good to come from it. The same thing I want. Maximus_Alex2003 wrote: An easier solution: As far as I can tell, Xirre hasn’t released his shell utility for people to run on their own servers. My servers are significantly more powerful than his, so I’d rather use the better ones. If I were able to work with Xirre to get him to allow me to use a modified version of his utility, that’d be fantastic. A.T.H.K wrote: Isn't it always? Besides that ultimately it'll be the way he handles situations and himself when things get a bit crazy if they do get crazy. Exactly, it is completely a matter of trust. As I’ve said before, if you don’t trust me, then refuse my offer if I ever come to you offering assistance with your projects. I would also like to note that I was a customer of yours for quite a while, and while I had accidentally made some late payments, no payments from me were ever charged-back. ;) Maximus_Alex2003 wrote: If, for example, you were assisting someone with their project by offering to host their project and setup a website for them and lets say they decided to switch their project to Dragonball/Z/GT. Well, now since you agreed to assit them without any terms of service you have to keep up with it until eventually you're given a C&D DMCA from FUNimation or your ISP. FUNimation probably not as bad. Your ISP may or may not blacklist you as a "do not offer service to this guy" sort of deal. Well if someone decided to switch their project to something unoriginal, they would be dropped from my program anyways. Any kid can go on Google and find sources for IP-infringing BYOND games and start modifying it. I’m only interested in helping developers that are working to create original content. Now lets say you decide "no dice bro, not helping anymore" without something like terms of service setup. Well now you're looking at a potential small-claims lawsuit since you agreed, without setting guidelines, that you were to host/assist them with their game development and you're now backing off of your agreement and the other party is not receiving the services that was promised to them. Well again, the things I’ve stated before would, technically, be considered a basic contract of sorts. I’ve already stated that receiving my assistance is totally reliant on my offering it, and that I’m totally within my rights to stop offering my assistance with advanced notice. Your first step, Magicmann, should be to look into business management and at least some sort of intro into business-type law. I’ve studied both business management and basic business law. I realize that there could be repercussions for my trying to help people, but as I’ve also already stated, I’m willing to take the risk and do this based on an honor system. I provide one or multiple of the different free services I’ve stated above, and the developer gets to continue their work without having to worry about finances or other complications related to the hosting of servers or proper storage of their code. Yes, BYOND is lovingly a hobby-ist center. But, BYOND is also not specifically a hobby-ist center. BYOND doesn't have any sort of standardized "If you use our software/website to assist others, we will protect you regardless of how many pre-teen adolescents to fully grown adults decide to take business more seriously than you wanted." I appreciate your concern, and I’ll take some of the points you’ve made into consideration; but my ultimate goal is to help others with no-strings-attached support. Kidpaddle45 wrote: and I just noticed that Magiccman isn't "The Magic Man"! xD Unfortunately, people still continue to fail to make that distinction. I’ve been around since 2005, but my taking random leave-of-absences here and there left me as a lesser-known BYOND fan. I still want to work with him and get his support, he wants to help the BYOND community and I'm sure we can find a way to work together and get things done quicker. Once I start looking for people to sponsor, I’ll keep you in mind. Just skimmed over your profile and it seems like you’ve been fairly active. Though, keep in mind, Naruto and Pokemon games are examples of projects that I wouldn’t sponsor. I’m strictly looking for original content. Maximus_Alex2003 wrote: It's a lovely ideal, don't get me wrong. I just don't see any sort of base setup yet and it's already being advertised publicly. This is not a good scenario. I can only smell the inevitable "kickstarter prerelease failure" happening. When something gets pre-released or publicly announced before any and all fallback procedures are in place, and then problems and issues come out of the woodwork and create a domino affect that will eventually crash the entire system. There’s a difference between a public announcement and a public advertisement. I’m still in the preparation stages as I’ve got more work to do before I start looking for prospective developers to sponsor. Ter13 wrote: To speak for myself here, I would never be narcissistic enough to put myself out there in this way. Take this as an insult if you like, but here's the reality of this situation. MM is more or less offering to assert creative and financial control over people using his services. Much like ATHK, I have my concerns that this is a parasitic and potentially damaging arrangement to enter into. When you take on a potential business relationship, the last thing you want is someone requesting access to your finances and future goals unless they are a potential buyer or investor. My ISP has no business telling me where or when to work, and no business checking my finances in order to determine how much I should pay. That's just not how a service relationship works, which is why I chimed in that this was only destined to become a negative relationship for any game involved, regardless of the character of the individual at the helm. The only thing I find insulting is that you won’t take the time to read everything I’ve said before giving unconstructive criticism. I’ve stated in the original post that I’m going to be offering support in terms of infrastructure (Game or website hosting, private repository hosting, etc). I specifically stated in the second post that if you make profit, please be honest and tell me so I can help make other hosting arrangements with a third party or so you can pay me a very reasonable fee that I stated in my second post in this thread is totally based on cost of resources allocated. I’m not trying to make profit, nor am I trying to take control of games. The only involvement I’ll make creatively, is offering constructive criticism that developers are in no way required to implement. The only financial involvement I’ll make is paying for infrastructure I offer to developers for free. As I’ve said multiple times, I’m basing profit on the honor system. If you’re making good money and you don’t tell me and I continue to give you free hosting; you’re the one being parasitic, not me. I agree fully with ATHK's opinion on the matter. And stand behind him as someone offering a genuine service, and someone who has a very good idea of ethical behavior regarding a service relationship. MM's trying to sell a parasitic relationship as a symbiotic one, and I decided not to respond further because of the lack of maturity of the responses to criticism. I didn't feel this conversation had anywhere positive to go were I to chip in further, so I silently bowed out. I don’t really see anything new here to respond to as I’ve already stated how I feel about your parasitic relationship comments. | |
What you're doing is great, but really?
Just try to motivate them, that's great!
Let me stop you right there,
one you won't know if it's profitable
making money != profit, hosting,art,sounds,programmers all cost money
How much are we talking here, you've stated no terms, 2% 20% 100%?
Do you have legally binding contracts?
A few other things,
Server hosting, CPU RAM HDD BW?
Website setup and hosting, HDD BW?
Private Github, where? HDD space?
What's stopping you from stealing anyone's source? Don't say "because I'm a nice guy" do you have a legally binding contract stating that this information is the users and solely the users?