A lot of the reason we moved away from editing posts and giving reasons for deletions and the auto-PM was mostly because it invited debate on moderator actions and resulted in threads being derailed completely.

The horses thing might be a bit worn at this point, but the original point of "this thread is now about horses" is not to derail threads. It's to point out that discussion has devolved to a point where the thread is only serving to incite drama and contributing to the thread is only being done because everyone involved has basically given up on constructive conversation. Personally, a lot of people have found it pretty humorous, but yeah, it's wearing thin and I'll knock it off from here on.

Unfortunately, I think it's a little suspect to be talking about too much moderator action in a thread about too little moderator action. It just seems awfully schizophrenic if you ask me.

Horse threads at the very least haven't been anti-social and hateful. They've been light-hearted attempts at bringing the conversation back down to a manageable point and introducing some levity in an otherwise venomous post-chain.

On the other hand, part of the problem with moderator actions being public is just that a lot of the regular customers really aren't interested in improving. The real trick to dealing with moderator actions that you disagree with is to take a step back, think about it for a little while, don't immediately message the mods, and direct a message to the support form. If you have a problem with a moderator action, or lack thereof, that's what support is for.

Doing the public moderator actions just always ended up ugly. I've got a lot of logs to prove it.
Quite frankly I don't know why "This is what BYOND needs" and "Dafuq is this moderation?" threads are even allowed.

Each discussion starts off and ends the exact same way every time. Then the shit-throwing contest ensues where everyone is trying to get their irrelevant point across. You know, the same exact point they attempted to get across the week before. And the week before that. Oh, and the week before that one too.

Aaaaaaand the week before that one.

And then finally a moderator swoops in like "ok kids, you've had your fun for the day, shows over." And then within a week, another thread about the exact same shit pops up, and we have the exact same arguments involving the exact same people for the millionth time.

There is no need for this thread at all. Like literally, if these discussions could get us any closer to a solution, we would've come up with one by now. This thread should've been deleted on sight, and if not, give me some reasons as to why it shouldn't have been. What productive thing is going to come out of this? Better yet, list all the productive results we got out of having this discussion the last 500 times. By Einstein's definition, this community is insane. Why do we allow these threads, and then resort to saying "YOU GUYS BETTER SETTLE DOWN OR I'LL HAVE TO START ISSUING OUT BANS"? The last countless times we had this discussion, it didn't turn out civil, so why would this one be any different? The answer is: there is no reason why it'll be any different! We're the same people, on the same site, having the same witless debate. Therefore, delete the threads as soon as they appear, and we don't have to go through this ridiculousness 5 times a month. It's not rocket science.

It just goes to show that BYOND never really was what it was intended to be. I came to this site when I was 12 years old, assuming it was a place filled with people enthusiastic about creating something just like I was. What I found was that the site was filled with incompetent losers who have no respect for the craft, hundreds upon hundreds of "games" out of which only 5 were worth playing, a community that would jump at the chance to argue about uselessness but will completely ignore you when you ask for testers and constructive feedback, moderators who haven't figured out how to deal with children and children who haven't learned yet that if they don't like the way a particular forum is ran, they can simply stop using said forum... we are the laughing stock of the indie gaming scene, and it's glaringly obvious why.
@Empirez: You are breaking character.

You aren't wrong, but you are out of character.
In response to Ter13
Ter13 wrote:
@Empirez: You are breaking character.

I mean, Venusaur.
In response to EmpirezTeam
EmpirezTeam wrote:
This thread should've been deleted on sight, and if not, give me some reasons as to why it shouldn't have been. What productive thing is going to come out of this?

Had this thread been removed, I guarantee you there would have been a follow-up thread consisting of "why was my thread deleted? this is yet another example of the byond moderators trying to stifle discussion. it's clear byond can't take constructive criticism."

Regardless of any action we take, it is always met with backlash. So either we allow the thread to exist and get yelled at for not moderating enough, or remove the thread and get yelled at for overmoderating. The outcome is always the same.
@Ter

If it seems 'schizophrenic' for these complaints of 'too much' and 'too little' to coincide, then you've struck my issue right on the head. Moderation activities seem inconsistent. It's actually quite easy for mods to do 'just enough' if they stick to the law with some wiggle room that can err on either side.

But I'm sorry to say that I don't follow the 'invitation to harassment' line of thought you're going on. Yes, I understand that users can PM mods once they know who did the actions and why, but that's not necessarily the problem here.

First, integrating notifications and messages is the root of the problem. If you can only respond to messages and merely access notifications, it prevents a line of messages through the PM/reason thing.

Second, recognizing that we're right back where we started (because we still know who acted and can PM them), it might do to simply have moderator accounts. Now players are linked to disciplinary actions through an organization, not an individual.

Really, half the problem might be how accessible the mods are, and isn't that a scary thought. The mods are as much a part of the community as anyone else so it's like, "I know you stole my chicken, I'm going to barge in your house". The moderation account business lets mods take moderation action without giving the user someone to target.

The other half of the problem is that the mods are volunteers with the only discernible criterion being "someone thinks I'm a responsible individual" (which unfortunately almost got a certain person mod privs just for sharing a similar key to another mod. Speaking of which, I miss that guy, both of them). So while I'm sure that these mods take their job very seriously, I don't see them taking it as seriously as someone at... say Blizzard support.

At leas with companies like Blizzard, Riot, and Valve, you can have meaningful discussions with the support. They don't just write you off as complaining about moderation action "because you're a whiny kid". Which seems to be the general consensus here. "You don't matter because you're a whiny kid".

It is here where I point out that it seems that I am the paragon of this community because I treat everyone equally. All of the plebians are welcome in my Moscow.

And while we're making jokes, let's address the horses thing. While it's amusing because of the phrase "beating a dead horse", it's just another example of inconsistency. My beef with the horses isn't that they exist (I can use the chuckle every now and again) but because of why they exist. It's like a joke that can exist because it exists and no one nipped it in the bud. It's okay to use horse jokes because, "it's a BYOND culture thing". But I (personal here) don't believe such an allowance should exist. If you're going to remove other jokes, you need to remove all jokes. Otherwise we run into the issue of INCONSISTENCY.

This thread should not have been deleted on sight. How far would reddit go if they deleted all threads aimed at encouraging discussion on sight? Sure, we might have had this discussion several times before, but we've talked about women's rights several times before. How long did it take for them to get the right to vote? (Oh Lugia, you're not allowed to use historical analogues because comparing discussions of website management and women's rights are two completely different things even if the comparisons are all there and point isn't that they're two different topics but that the discussions should not be silenced because they promote growth and you should really put in some kind of punctuation some time soon).
BYOND has raised $1,675 of our monthly goal of $5,000.

^The real problem with BYOND.

And as Lugia pointed out astutely, I do happen to be poor, so I can't be of much help this month. Being a broke college student and disabled veteran studying philosophy and comp sci doesn't make for a lot of spare moneys.
I'm saying, this thread, which is obviously going to result in toxicity, is being allowed, and everyone involved is told to "behave" themselves or be banned. I'm saying why allow the thread to begin with if you're just going to ban the people who are inevitably going to do what these types of threads cause them to do? I don't believe for a second anyone came to this thread expecting it to turn out civil. We all anticipated the Lugia vs Ter13 argument, it happens every time those two wind up talking in the same thread, without fail.

You delete the thread, Ichiro makes his QQ thread about nazi mods, you delete that one too and ban him. Easy.
It is kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. We, out of exasperation with the "BYOND is dying", "BYOND can't do basic task X and therefore sucks", or "I hate everyone on BYOND and the mods are nazis" threads being a weekly feature of the forums attempted to start cordoning them off when they started to go into a nosedive.

The result though, was an increase in the number of threads on the subject. What I said in the first reply to this thread.

As for the Lugia business, last I'm gonna say on the subject. I think I've finally gotten everything that's been on my mind about it off my mind, and it's readily apparent that I don't need to make that case at all anymore as it's basically a mutually shared sentiment by almost the entire community. No point beating a dead... Well, you know.
In response to Lige
Lige wrote:
It used to be like that, but it almost always resulted in the user taking it as an invitation to insult, spam, and rage at the moderator. More often than not, the user would use it as a window to argue with the moderator about their actions and, eventually, tell them off before "threatening" to run to Tom.

That's a shame, but I guess I kinda expected it. Did you ever try an automated bot (anonymous) so that they can't pin the blame on a single mod? it might help that situation.

@Empirez.

and if not, give me some reasons as to why it shouldn't have been.

It's a forum.
a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

It started out civil.

I'm pretty sure it didn't break any guidelines initially. Maybe the nazi reference should have been edited out though.

This entire thread was my opinion in full on how I think the forums should be improved. It's much better than spouting into random threads that don't really need that discussion. If you disagree, ok. but.

o, Lugia. You have been and always will be cancerous to this establishment.

I don't think you helped by poking lugia - it's like poking a level 80 charizard - you are probably going to get flamed if you do to much of it.



In response to Stephen001
Stephen001 wrote:
It was less the matter of formal complaints to Tom (which were handled fairly appropriately for the most part), more-so just the bemusing self-importance you'd get off people. "How DARE you moderate /me/, of all people?" etc.

I guess people don't like it when the rules apply to them. It's a thankless job where you have to police the worst a site has - it's a terrible job to have - but mods ideally make the world a better place for the rest of the forum populace. I for one, enjoy their existence.

In response to LordAndrew
LordAndrew wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote:
This thread should've been deleted on sight, and if not, give me some reasons as to why it shouldn't have been. What productive thing is going to come out of this?

Had this thread been removed, I guarantee you there would have been a follow-up thread consisting of "why was my thread deleted? this is yet another example of the byond moderators trying to stifle discussion. it's clear byond can't take constructive criticism."

I doubt I would have done such a thing - nothing ever results from a pure complaint thread. I think this thread should have been allowed simply because it didn't violate any guidelines initially + it is supposed to be a forum - like I said, the nazi reference might have been a bad idea + edited out.

Regardless of any action we take, it is always met with backlash. So either we allow the thread to exist and get yelled at for not moderating enough, or remove the thread and get yelled at for overmoderating. The outcome is always the same.

I'm kinda pushing for guidelines here that limit taking drama from one thread to another - as you mentioned in the first paragraph, it does happen and it shouldn't.

too much policing >oppression.
too little>apathy.

It's hard to get right, I think forums are supposed to be a place where you can freely exchange views without fear of prosecution (ideally). Moderators walk a fine line to be sure - it's a title I respect but do not want.
tl;dr - mods r OP nerf pl0x
Goodness, did I just read a three page thread with nary a shitstorm in sight?

Winter is coming.
Ter is, as usual, on point. Tom made the decision earlier this year to remove the Auto PMs because they ended up being an easy way for users to complain right back to the mod, and most such cases were not gray areas in the least. The PM thing was his idea in the first place, but it didn't work out like either of us hoped. I was all too happy to pull them again.

Public admin history: same deal. Caused more trouble than the transparency solved.

For my part, I hate the idea of limiting things to strict rules because it eliminates judgment on the mods' part. Rules lawyers know how to find loopholes and skirt the line; harmless characters get aggressively punished for sometimes coloring outside the lines but meaning no harm. Anyone who doesn't get why starting a new thread to carry over old drama is bad, won't understand the rules anyway.
In response to Lummox JR
If you like the way things are - everything's fine. Don't change anything.

If you don't like the way things are - change something.

I think the worst thing that could happen from here on out for these forums is that absolutely nothing changes. Tis a scary place to be for the wandering soul.
I think the worst thing that could happen from here on out for these forums is that absolutely nothing changes. Tis a scary place to be for the wandering soul.

You came to BYOND at the wrong time. 2010-2011 was the worst it ever was on the forums, but before that from like 2007-2010, the entire site was amazingly toxic. The advantage of the blogs and guilds though was that you could more easily tailor your experience to a select group of people and keep discussion limited to a small realm of things that interest you.

Interestingly, this has had some consequences to how users look at the site ever since. "This thread, this post shouldn't exist because I don't like it." is a common attitude. This basically results in a "we can't coexist because you say things I disagree with" attitude by many users.

Unfortunately, when you have people in a community that are too sensitive to stand and profess their views on their own, but too obstinate to actually listen to what anyone else has to say, you get what we have now. Some people need to go around here. That's for sure. But better than that, we need some people to change. It's much better that an individual who is toxic changes and becomes productive and helpful than a toxic individual leaves.

Unfortunately, a lot of the common problem children that we do have around here aren't interested in actually changing. We do lose something when we start barring people from participation, no matter how hostile and toxic the user is. But the point where users have been banned in the past is when they degrade existing services for everyone around them more than they contribute.

It's okay to be obstinate and opinionated --you just have to be able to contribute positively. It's not just the fact that someone offends people that makes them a problem. A lot of it comes down to what you are doing for the community versus what you are taking away from it.

I like Lummox's hands-off attitude. A lot of folks around here can't take a joke. Some people get offended if you aren't 100% serious all the time around here. Others get offended because people have a different interpretation of what's helpful.

This is especially true in Developer Help, where there's a constant and ongoing debate about tone and topic. A number of us keep a close eye on Developer Help, bug reports, and feature requests because those are the areas that we feel are most important for the site to keep free of personal drama. However, some debates pop up frequently of how best to be an advocate for the software and a mentor for inexperienced programmers. Not everyone is going to agree on what the best approach is, but I think we can all agree that teaching and advising is the goal of that part of the site. If what we're doing contributes to the discussion of best practices and being a good advocate for the software, it's worth saying.

Again, though, it comes down to what you want out of the community. If you want a friendly, helpful, developer-oriented conversation, don't bother with off/on topic, and don't bother with art&sound, classified ads, or design philosophy (for the most part). Stick to the tutorials and snippets and dev help forums. It's a much more heavily moderated experience.

I've always agreed with strong moderation in Dev Help, Bug reports, and feature requests. As long as our new parent-free forum is going to be a thing, I'm sure Lummox and above all Nadrew/Kaio will agree that it doesn't extend to the developer-oriented subforums.
Yut Put wrote:
2010-2011 was the best year. it was like a competition over who could troll the forums the most

Spoken like a true sadist.
2008-2010 was the best hands down c:
In response to Ter13
Ter13 wrote:
Yut Put wrote:
2010-2011 was the best year. it was like a competition over who could troll the forums the most

Spoken like a true sadist.

sadist? thats my job
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