ID:2370814
 

Poll: Do you plan on releasing a game for the BYOND platform this year?

I'm not a developer. 3% (2)
Yes. 50% (26)
No. 28% (15)
I'm not sure. 17% (9)

Login to vote.

http://www.byond.com/games/?sort=date

^ click here and take a look.

There's only about 11 new titles this year for this platform. A good chunk of those are poorly supported by both a lack of development and players.

Now I'm not saying people don't have stuff in the works underground. But that doesn't matter if they never ship anything.

I used to remember a ton of new titles coming out every month. Even if they didn't matter much, it was nice seeing things being published..

So what gives folks?
Gimme artwork
Other, more popular engines exist. Many of these are much easier to use than BYOND while being more powerful and for a similar amount of effort you can produce vastly superior results.

Personally speaking, I moved on from BYOND because I simply do not consider it fit for purpose anymore. Outside of maybe board games, I do not consider BYOND suitable for making games. It has many serious problems with it (and has done for a long time now) which it seems will simply never be addressed.

Moving on from BYOND was probably the best thing I ever did. In these past few months I've learned more than I did in the past few years using BYOND. I'm producing better, quicker results with my project. It also helped me to land a new job which is much better than the last one I had and pays pretty well (I helped design and maintain a program that allows people to design things like kitchens that they can then view in VR before buying a real kitchen for their home).

BYOND was great while it lasted and it's sad to see it as it is now, but it's more of a program to mess around in and pass a bit of time than a program to make games with.
Do not waste your time with this platform and the people that run it, they seem to waste your time left and right, run away as fast as possible.
IMO byond has a very small learning curve compared to other engines. It's probably byonds biggest strength.
The issue with people running into performance issues is slowly going away. Not to mention the majority (not all but I would say more times than not) of people who run into performance issues happens because of poor programming practises or design flaws
In response to Zagros5000
Create a new project.
Add an icon for mobs and one for turfs then assign them.
Create an empty map.
Compile it then host it using dream daemon.

This will be unable to run at a stable FPS. It doesn't matter whether you run it at 10, 20, 30 or even 60 fps, it will constantly stutter and will frequently freeze for a split second or two.

This is why BYOND is not usable in any real sense and unless it's fixed it never will be.
In response to The Magic Man
Can someone give this guy a medal? He knows whats up.
In response to S10Games
Both of you write trash tier code and refuse to learn. It's no wonder everything you make runs like hot garbage.
In response to Ter13
Please entertain us and show us how wonderful the engine performs when it comes to an online environment, I would gladly bend over and submit, if you can show this in action.
I'm not usually one to post on the forums as my posts get deleted anyways (wait and see) but it should be addressed that 70% of the so-called "games" created on byond are rips and 20% of the remainder is programmed by a bunch of retards who don't know the difference between a verb and proc so 90% of the people who make "games" on byond really have no clue what they're doing in the first place.

There are countless guides explaining how to make a game the correct way but almost everyone is to lazy to actually read the guides and learn what they teach so they just "wing it" and wonder why it runs like shit...

I've seen a good chunk of games that are very well done and have many, many great features but these games were produced by people who actually know what they're doing. Now, unlike others, I am willing to read and learn and if I still don't understand something, I'll simply ask someone for help. This however raises a new issue... Anyone in this community who actually knows what they're doing is so sick and tired of guiding morons that it's difficult to get an actual, helpful response as they've lost interest in truly helping anymore.

My two-cents will end here, but back on topic of the OP.

I am working on a project of my own and I am hoping to have it released sometime this year, I'm unsure as to when exactly but I am doing my best.
In response to S10Games
S10Games wrote:
Please entertain us and show us how wonderful the engine performs when it comes to an online environment, I would gladly bend over and submit, if you can show this in action.

You've been shown several times over the last few years, but your potato chromebook and your inherent confirmation bias don't allow you to see it. Also, when joining a game from spain, you are going to have network lag if the server is in the US.

You don't bend. You never do. It's all pigeon chess with you.

Again, I've seen your code for a lot of the stuff you've worked on. The best code in there is usually written by Avid, and that's a bad sign.

EDIT: That's not to say the engine doesn't need love. It does. You guys can be right about that, while being responsible for your own failure too.
There is no escape for us
In response to Ter13
I don't claim to be the best programmer ever, but this is the only code I have in a test project (and most of it's added when the project is created).



It cannot run at a stable FPS. Whether it's single player, multiplayer hosted locally or hosted using dream daemon (the worst offender), it simply cannot maintain a decent, playable FPS.
My computer is (to my knowledge) good enough to play any game in existence on it's highest settings and I frequently play games at a 4K resolution running at 120 FPS. My computer is not the problem, nor is my ability to write code.

BYOND has a serious problem right now and it is causing many people to simply go else where (I'm specifically talking about FPS, it could have other problems too but I consider this one to be the biggest right now)). You can defend BYOND all you want and blame people for being shit coders, but that does not get the problem fixed, it just makes even more people leave.
I personally want this problem fixed. I didn't spend half a year working my ass off on a project only to end up dumping it. I tried to bring this issue up in the hopes of it being fixed, but the only responses I got were "we know" or "deal with it".
I got tired of waiting and hoping it would be addressed, so I moved onto another engine.

I'd love to see BYOND fixed and improved upon, but I fully understand it's being worked on by a single guy. I'm not expecting or demanding miracles, I've simply moved on to other tools that better suit my needs. I'm sure many other people feel the same and have done the same.
Of course you are seeing visual jank. You are depending on +REP macros, which are sent from the client to the server. The commands are not set to be instant, which results in the queue stacking up by design. You need to use an input handling loop with instant verbs for tracking key states, and then resolve movement on the server-side by using those states.

We've gone over this repeatedly here as to why this is the case, and why pixel movement is the most obvious offender in terms of it being noticable. Using proper glide sizes and tile movement, you can smooth the shit out of an online game, but you can also really smooth pixel movement up a good bit (albeit not completely) using a better input handling scheme.

Last, you say BYOND isn't maintaining a decent FPS with those settings. I don't believe that at all. How are you checking FPS? BYOND's renderer doesn't play nice with a lot of overlays, so that tends to confuse a lot of people when they try to measure client performance. We now have tools for profiling what's going on in the renderer in the latest beta. You should scope them out if you want to prove your findings.

These are all things that should be demonstrable in a demo project in the bug reports forum, or the feature requests forum.

Every single person that I see talking about how the whole engine doesn't work at a basic level has always failed to produce even an example of how things don't work that can actually be shown to a wide audience. It's always nebulous complaints that are never successfully demonstrated.
I've tried many different methods of making BYOND run smoothly, including using code you yourself wrote. Nothing works.
https://i.imgur.com/8xvIroL.png
Is the proof I'm not using macros with the repeat box ticked (I'm pretty sure this code is based on code you wrote too, specifically the edge sliding code you wrote ages ago).

As for measuring FPS, I've used Nvidias shadowplay and FRAPS. Both report similar results. Singleplayer mode running at supposedly 30 FPS is closer to 28 FPS but jitters between 26-30, there are occasional dips to as low at 20.
Multiplayer running with dream daemon is significantly worse, with FPS jittering between 20-30 constantly and dips as low as single digits.
What my eyes see and what these programs tell me match. Which is BYOND games do not run at a very stable FPS and there are occasional dips with games hosted on dream daemon being significantly worse.
I've literally recorded and posted videos showing that BYOND games don't run at a stable FPS. I'm not sure what more evidence you need.
In response to The Magic Man
The Magic Man wrote:
I don't claim to be the best programmer ever, but this is the only code I have in a test project (and most of it's added when the project is created).


Lol

It cannot run at a stable FPS. Whether it's single player, multiplayer hosted locally or hosted using dream daemon (the worst offender), it simply cannot maintain a decent, playable FPS.

If you don't know what you're doing, you're correct.

My computer is (to my knowledge) good enough to play any game in existence on it's highest settings and I frequently play games at a 4K resolution running at 120 FPS. My computer is not the problem, nor is my ability to write code.

Maybe it's the code at some point.

BYOND has a serious problem right now and it is causing many people to simply go else where (I'm specifically talking about FPS, it could have other problems too but I consider this one to be the biggest right now)). You can defend BYOND all you want and blame people for being shit coders, but that does not get the problem fixed, it just makes even more people leave.

No one is going to leave over a post that has no significance. No one should have to defend BYOND because those who use it hopefully see the potential it brings :P

I personally want this problem fixed. I didn't spend half a year working my ass off on a project only to end up dumping it. I tried to bring this issue up in the hopes of it being fixed, but the only responses I got were "we know" or "deal with it".

Did you get to the point FPS issues started to appear half a year into it? Might be recent code.

I got tired of waiting and hoping it would be addressed, so I moved onto another engine.

Good for you.

In response to The Magic Man
The Magic Man wrote:
Other, more popular engines exist. Many of these are much easier to use than BYOND while being more powerful and for a similar amount of effort you can produce vastly superior results.

This is pretty much why I moved on, as well. I was comfortable with DM, but I wasn't motivated or passionate about anything I worked on. I took my departure from BYOND as an opportunity to learn other programming languages. I don't have anything negative to say about BYOND- I just don't think it does what I need it to do, or it doesn't do it well enough to justify it's use.

BYOND was great while it lasted and it's sad to see it as it is now, but it's more of a program to mess around in and pass a bit of time than a program to make games with.

I have to agree that it's more of a program that I mess around with, but even that has become a rarity in the last year or so. I had returned for a few weeks this month, but between a busy month and having to cut down on the scope of the project because of being busy, the project was no longer worth the investment.
In response to Kozuma3
Maybe it's the code at some point.

This is just starting to sound like a bad excuse. Maybe it's BYONDs code.
I've tested my code, other peoples code who claim to be experts at using BYOND and understand it enough to avoid any problems with the engine and many random BYOND games. All suffer from the same problem, they do not maintain stable FPS and the problem is much worse when hosting with dream daemon.
I've even had other people tell me the exact same thing.

Did you get to the point FPS issues started to appear half a year into it? Might be recent code.

They always existed. It just becomes easier to notice when your game looks like a game and not a bunch of place holder blocks.

I'm beginning to believe BYOND is used by two distinct groups of people. Ones who actually try to make games, and sanctimonious assholes who only use BYOND to prove they're better than everyone else.
Obviously you're not going to see the problems BYOND has when you don't even use it to try and make games.
In response to The Magic Man
I'm beginning to believe BYOND is used by two distinct groups of people. Ones who actually try to make games, and sanctimonious assholes who only use BYOND to prove they're better than everyone else.
Obviously you're not going to see the problems BYOND has when you don't even use it to try and make games.

I totally agree with this statement, I have yet to see these people that always talk so highly about the engine, do any game at all, an actual live game that deals with players playing the game over long periods of time. However, they always seem to come running and attacking any sort of criticism people have over the engine, and always blame the people that try to make the games that actually have experience with dealing with an online environment and see these problems first hand.
ITT: Incompetent programmers who don't know why or how to setup a movement loop.

BYOND isn't great; that much is widely known. However, most of the issues you guys have brought up aren't really issues with the engine, rather your own approaches. I say this often, but with how smooth and efficiently i got Feed to run (online, nonetheless) there's no reason any of you cat's simple RPGs can't run smooth. A lot of it is taking the time to learn how the engine works and understanding how to work *with* the engine's shortcomings as opposed to working against them.
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