ID:586403
 
Resolved
Applies to:BYOND Pager
Status: Resolved (499)

This issue has been resolved.
Almost 2 months ago, I made several suggestions (links below) about how to make the pager a worthwhile application, instead of just an awkward middleman for connecting to BYOND games.

I was going to make an entire replacement app for the pager with BYOND, in hopes that the BYOND staff could simply redirect to such a "game" when the pager was started; Since such a project would provide the community with a vastly superior community/communications platform, allow for updates without having to rely on the entirety of BYOND being updated, and would save Lummox time to work on other things (like releasing 494!). However, after a short while of attempting to build such a project, it became rather clear that such a thing wasn't really feasible within DM. The built-in browser is broken (it doesn't even display the BYOND website properly), you cannot minimize to the task-bar as a background chat application should, you cannot display popup notifications outside of the interface, and etc...

So, instead, I decided to just use what I had as a simple mockup of what a better pager might look like:
http://www.angelfire.com/hero/straygames/ByondBugs/ BYONDPagerFix3.png

Previous suggestions:
Auto Start http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280141
Website Integration http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280068
New Sounds http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=283094
Server Player Lists http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280219
Friends List Icons http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280114
Better Messaging http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280125
Better Popups http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280093
Games Tab http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280111
Messaging http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280080
Directly Launching Games http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=280089
I'll be honest, I dislike that mock up. A lot.
  • Auto Start: You can already do this manually with windows.
  • Website Integration: I'm pretty fine with being able to message people. Isn't like a can't connect to games and such from the website.
  • New Sounds: Please. I'm not bending backwards and doing three flips to change the all-too-annoying default sounds.
  • Server Player Lists: I can do without this but it would be nice, I suppose.
  • Better Messaging: Yeah, the pager does need a bit of a tuneup with messaging.
  • Better Popups: That would be pretty nice.
  • Games Tab:I disagree with how you described it seeing as I don't want every stupid game I log onto to be listed. I prefer a nice list of my favorite games.
  • Messaging: Agree.
  • Directly Launching Games: I disagree, but being able to customize the splash screen would be great.
In response to Kumorii
Kumorii wrote:
I'll be honest, I dislike that mock up. A lot.
lol As if the current pager is anything to look at? What is wrong with the mockup?

Auto Start: You can already do this manually with windows.
You can, but I'd bet 99.9% of BYOND users don't know how. And even if you do, there is no way to have it start minimized as a taskbar icon, as far as I know.

Website Integration: I'm pretty fine with being able to message people. Isn't like a can't connect to games and such from the website.
What? You're saying the website shouldn't be integrated? Its not like this would be some necessary part of the pager you have to constantly have open. If you've ever used Steam, you can easily bring up your friends list and message people without ever viewing the site. Having it integrated just makes things easier and more intuitive.

New Sounds: Please. I'm not bending backwards and doing three flips to change the all-too-annoying default sounds.
Again, most people probably don't know about such settings. Even if they did, it is somewhat ridiculous to expect users to find and replace your provided default sounds just because they are horrible.

Games Tab:I disagree with how you described it seeing as I don't want every stupid game I log onto to be listed. I prefer a nice list of my favorite games.
It wouldn't mean the removal of a favorite games section, it would just mean multiple properly listed ones.

Directly Launching Games: I disagree, but being able to customize the splash screen would be great.
If they stick with the unnecessary splash screens, they should make it so you can at least launch multiple games at once. Which, if I remember correctly, used to be possible once upon a time anyway.
Auto Start: That is true and it will if you set it to start with Windows.

Website Integration: The pager doesn't need to be integrated with the website when most of the features on the pager are already "technically" present on the website. Messaging? Check. Launching Games? Check. Favorite Games Listing? Check.

New Sounds: I was agreeing with you.

Games Tab: Well, I guess that'd be good then.

Directly Launching Games: You used to be able to awhile back, I guess that changed?
In response to Kumorii
Kumorii wrote:
Auto Start: That is true and it will if you set it to start with Windows.
I've tried setting it to run minimized, and giving it a minimize parameter, neither of these basic properties seem to work? I suppose I could try writing a batch file to launch it...

Website Integration: The pager doesn't need to be integrated with the website when most of the features on the pager are already "technically" present on the website. Messaging? Check. Launching Games? Check. Favorite Games Listing? Check.
Which is kind of the point. The pager only redundantly provides the same features as the website in an awkwardly bland interface. However, it doesn't provide anything above the website, while the website certainly provides multiple features that the pager does not. Integrating these into a single entity should be beneficial all around.

EDIT: Also, you didn't mention why you dislike the mockup
The mockup looks like classic Dream Seeker.


(plus pager, and such)
I like putting the website back into the pager great idea!

It's been done with a lot of other programs it works great for them by not us?

Makes finding games a lot easier.
In response to A.T.H.K
A.T.H.K wrote:
I like putting the website back into the pager great idea!

It's not a new idea.
In YE OLDEN DAYS, of 2004/5, before the release of the separate pager, there was a HUB tab, or something of that nature, which was just a browser with the BYOND site in it.
There's really no point to it, imo.
In response to A.T.H.K
A.T.H.K wrote:
I like putting the website back into the pager great idea!

"back"

Yes, I know. Still, it's pointless.
Website Integration: Okay, I kinda of see your point now that you mention it.

As for the mockup, I'm somewhat of a minimalist so having a HUGE button-cluttered pager with a browser on it would be WAY out of my taste. Also, why include the website on it when BYOND is already one of my preset home pages when I open my browser? That's just me two cents, though.
In response to Super Saiyan X
Super Saiyan X wrote:
The mockup looks like classic Dream Seeker.
It was designed to look like Steam.
http://cdn.store.steampowered.com/public/images/v5/about/ monitor.png
http://www.angelfire.com/hero/straygames/ByondBugs/ BYONDPagerFix.png

Yes, I know. Still, it's pointless.
It is far from pointless, as it provides a vastly more intuitive and united feel to the software. As I have mentioned in various other places; The current pager is what is pointless. Its primary purpose is to serve as an awkward middleman to allow you to connect to BYOND games, but doesn't actually provide you with a method of actually finding/connecting to games unless you have already Favorited them. Back when there was no pager app, and everything was just built directly into Seeker, it gave a much more united and consistent feel to the entirety of BYOND, as well as a way to easily browse games, and more integrated (through still terribad) BYOND chat.


Kumorii wrote:
As for the mockup, I'm somewhat of a minimalist so having a HUGE button-cluttered pager with a browser on it would be WAY out of my taste.
The point of that main window in the background is to be somewhat bulky, and offer a full experience of BYOND and everything there. That window is basically a BYOND-specific replacement for your browser. Majority of the time, you would never see that page. You would have the pager minimized to your task bar, right click on the icon, and select the friends list or maybe a recently played game (again, how you would with Steam). This would either launch you directly into the game, or just pull up a simple friends list which wouldn't be too different looking than the pager does now. You could also have several chat windows open, but again, they wouldn't be tied to that main window in the background with the website displays.

Also, why include the website on it when BYOND is already one of my preset home pages when I open my browser?
Because it probably isn't the default homepage for most people, and having it integrated into the software makes it feel like an intuitive part of things. Instead of having the website to browse games, and the pager to join games, when really these are/should be the same thing.

Currently, when you install BYOND, it sends you back to the BYOND website, which you were presumably just on. If it were integrated into the pager, it could instead launch the pager with the website in it, showing you that the pager has an actual function tied to playing BYOND games, instead of just a task bar icon that holds your login information and occasionally alerts you about new forum post replies.
In response to Kumorii
Kumorii wrote:
why include the website on it when BYOND is already one of my preset home pages when I open my browser? That's just me two cents, though.

Because that's you it would be much more friendlier for new users who have never used BYOND to have it all in one.

IMO it's easier its better despite if you have it as a bookmark or as the homepage ..
Also, there a ton of features that a new pager (built with DM?) could provide above and beyond the current features.

Most importantly, actual instant messaging, and various things related to that. Customizable messages, display-name changes, profile picture displays, etc. Past just 1on1 IMing, it could also provide public and private chat rooms/channels, even a default chat-room that everyone on BYOND could participate in. Friends could be sortable into groups. It could even support file transfers.

As seen in the mockup, it also provides much more intuitive access to the BYOND community/website. Through the software that you are being forced to use anyway, you can now browse and launch games, visit the forums, manage your account, and more.

Also, between the massive amount of possible membership features, and the integration of the website and therefore ads, it should increase BYOND's overall revenue. Since BYOND's current platform provides next to nothing to 99.9% of its user-base, I think a competent messenger is the least we should expect.
I like the general idea, but it could use some tweaking. Personally, I think Steam looks a lot better visually as well. One could argue that graphics aren't a big deal, just like they do with games, but they do help offer a better impression.

There needs to be better color management, background designs, and just a generally more unique and well organized flow for things. Almost anything is better than the current separation, though. I barely even use the pager, and find its design to be very boring and often frustrating. I could use the website for everything (which is very little) that I use the pager for, aside from joining my bookmarked games, and that's a bit odd. Things just seem out of date, though the website update helped some.
In response to Toddab503
Toddab503 wrote:
I like the general idea, but it could use some tweaking. Personally, I think Steam looks a lot better visually as well. One could argue that graphics aren't a big deal, just like they do with games, but they do help offer a better impression. There needs to be better color management, background designs, and just a generally more unique and well organized flow for things.
Graphical flair is definitely important, and not something that I should be in charge of designing lol
The general colors of the mockup were designed to match that of the BYOND website.

Almost anything is better than the current separation, though. I barely even use the pager
Exactly
This feature request makes a lot of it obsolete. Unless the BYOND staff is going to take the time to turn the pager into an awesome looking, fully functional IM client, they'd be better of using an existing protocol so they can use existing IM clients (which already support many of these features).

I'd rather see chat integrated with games instead of the website. If you're playing a game and could IM your friends through the game's interface (in other words, you don't have to switch windows or stop paying attention to the game). Though, the easy way to accomplish this is to have web-based chat, stick a browser control in the game, and direct it to the web-based chat page's URL.

I would guess that most of the people logged into BYOND games who aren't completely idle are just chatting (it helps that BYOND has a lot of "games" that are just for chatting). If they're playing a BYOND game, there's a decent chance they're also logged into a BYOND chat program. If all games gave you the ability to chat with anyone who is logged into the pager, website, or any BYOND game, I think people would like that. People want to chat, but the pager is terrible for chatting. This is an easy way to fix up the pager and add some other features.
In response to Forum_account
Forum_account wrote:
This feature request makes a lot of it obsolete. [...] they'd be better of using an existing protocol so they can use existing IM clients (which already support many of these features).
I'm not sure how you expect those IM clients to work, but all of that sounds like an excessive amount of work on everyone's part for less worthwhile results than we would get if this was built internally.

Unless the BYOND staff is going to take the time to turn the pager into an awesome looking, fully functional IM client
That is exactly what should be done. Though, personally, I would rather not have the current BYOND staff tasked with developing it.

I'd rather see chat integrated with games instead of the website. If you're playing a game and could IM your friends through the game's interface (in other words, you don't have to switch windows or stop paying attention to the game). Though, the easy way to accomplish this is to have web-based chat, stick a browser control in the game, and direct it to the web-based chat page's URL.
Except, that requires extra effort on the developers part, which is foolish to expect, not to mention pointless. If the pager is functional, and people know how to use it, then there is no reason that developers should have to intentionally stick it into every game that they create. As with Steam, their chat can be used in every game you play, and you can chat with anyone using Steam, regardless of what game they might be playing, but it doesn't fall on the developers to implement Steam chat into their games.

If all games gave you the ability to chat with anyone who is logged into the pager, website, or any BYOND game, I think people would like that.
Which is sort of the point of this new pager/messenger system? The current pager pretends to provide that very feature, but how many people actually ever talk to each other through it? There are several people from BYOND that I occasionally chat with, we are all always connected to the pager, but never use it to communicate.

Also, as we've sort of mentioned here, the pager (and everything else) did used to be integrated directly into seeker, which gave a much better feel to BYOND as a whole.
In response to Falacy
Falacy wrote:
I'm not sure how you expect those IM clients to work, but all of that sounds like an excessive amount of work on everyone's part for less worthwhile results than we would get if this was built internally.

It's simple. Chat protocols already exist. Instead of creating their own and making their web server act as a chat server running some custom BYOND protocol, they just download an existing server (like Openfire) and give each BYOND user an account. People download an existing client (like Pidgin) and log into their BYOND chat account.

It's very easy to set it up. Here's what I just did:

7:22 - Started downloading Openfire and Pidgin on my desktop, also started downloading Pidgin on my laptop
7:23 - Openfire download finished, started the install
7:24 - Pidgin download finished, started the install (on both)
7:25 - Openfire install finished
7:27 - Openfire configuration finished (the domain is called "PC"), Pidgin installer finished on my laptop
7:28 - Created two user accounts (Forum_account@PC and Falacy@PC) in the Openfire admin console (http://localhost:9090)
7:31 - PC Pidgin install finished
7:32 - Added support for my local XMPP server in both Pidgin instances and logged in (in Pidgin, Manage Accounts -> Add, pick "XMPP" as the protocol and fill in the username/password)
7:33 - Added each user as a buddy (we're buddies!)
7:34 - Sent a chat message from Pidgin on my PC, received it in Pidgin on my laptop.

Here's a screenshot of the result. Not bad for 12 minutes!

For BYOND it'd take a little more work. They'd need to create accounts for every user and make a chat account each time a new user is created. This seems to be a pretty common task, so I don't think it'd take that long.

Except that requires extra effort on the developers part, which is foolish to expect, not to mention pointless. If the pager is functional, and people know how to use it, then there is no reason that people should have to intentionally stick it into every game that they develop. As with Steam, the chat can be used in every game you play, and you can chat with anyone using Steam, regardless of what game they might be playing, but it doesn't fall on the developers to implement Steam into their games.

It's a simple task. Add a browser control to the interface, then make it show the web-based chat page BYOND provides.

With a good pager this feature is not as important, but would still be good to have. BYOND isn't exactly like Steam. I expect that BYOND users move from game to game more. People set up servers of games they like to play or a game they're working on and invite people to join it. Being able to invite people from within your own game and for people to accept invitations from within the game they're currently in could be useful.
In response to Forum_account
Forum_account wrote:
For BYOND it'd take a little more work. They'd need to create accounts for every user and make a chat account each time a new user is created. This seems to be a pretty common task, so I don't think it'd take that long.
But what is the point of all this extra work? These messengers that you suggest using are already fully functional, why build a BYOND layer on top of them? Aside from it being slightly simpler to directly see somebody's account name, instead of having to ask for their IM name, it doesn't seem like it would provide any benefits. Would you be able to customize these already established messenger systems with features like profile pictures or BYOND game invites? Or effect any type of custom features through them?

It's a simple task. Add a browser control to the interface, then make it show the web-based chat page BYOND provides.
It may be as simple as inserting a browser control, but that leads to inconsistencies across a seemingly similar chat utility, and pointless extra work for developers. I have multiple games with completely different interface layouts, I would have to go back and update all of these projects to include what should be a standard feature, and attempt to figure out where such a browser control would best fit. All of that would be unnecessary if they handled it properly like Steam does.

BYOND isn't exactly like Steam.
Maybe not exactly, but they are fundamentally the same concept. If anything, BYOND should actually have an advantage over Steam when it comes to integrating systems like this.

I expect that BYOND users move from game to game more. People set up servers of games they like to play or a game they're working on and invite people to join it. Being able to invite people from within your own game and for people to accept invitations from within the game they're currently in could be useful.
All of this (switching games, hosting servers, inviting friends) happens regularly on Steam, and is fully supported by their messenger.
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