ID:715475
 
It's official, the world is on it's way out the door. Cosmic radiation or some other cancerous material has brought about an idea to me that when I say it, everyone will agree with my End of Days prediction.

Of years of bantering on about how much I just hate the Anime games cluttering up the hub, and how much all of you are just so sick and tired of hearing me preach about how bad they are, what I'm about to say will shock you, so I am forced to do so only between two clearly marked quotations.

QUOTE "I want to make an Anime game." END QUOTE.

That's not even the worst part...

QUOTE "I want to make a Naruto Fangame." END QUOTE.

No, I've not gone insane (yet). After all of the years of saying how there is no hope left for Anime games on BYOND any more, I've been struck with a radical idea. The reason for my recently lunatic thinking is because I honestly think that Anime games can be saved from the fiery hell they're currently dive-bombing into. I want to be the one who proves that Anime games can be made both competently and WITHOUT RIPPING. And the best way to do that is by tackling the largest cancer of them all, Naruto.

Oh yes, Anti-Anime Conformist #1 has turned to the Dark Side and is now plotting the downfall of the most current Anime games on the hub today. Yes, I do know that it most likely won't lend me credit as a developer, just because it's a Naruto game, but I'm willing to accept that to prove a point.

As of right now, the best Naruto games have been mediocre at best, but I want to create something that not just Anime fans can get into, but heavy RPG fan's too. Yes, I want to create a Naruto RPG, complete with quests, dungeons, character progression, and of course, PvP. But PvP won't be like every other Naruto game, where the higher level players just slaughter the low level one's for no reason. My plans are to make it a strategy turn-based combat system, complete with battle screens and all, of course. So it will successfully cut out all of the open world combat nonsense.

At any rate, I'll refrain from boring you will the other details, but I must know. Is this idea worth something? To develop a quality Naruto RPG? Or is it most likely to flop like all of the rips on the HUB right now?

Opinions and questions are appreciated.
If you are successful, and create a high-quality Naruto game, won't that only increase the chances of Viz Media (or whatever company owns the IP here) sending you a C&D and destroying all of your hard work?

Why not create an original game that's just different enough so that you're safe from legal troubles, and can offer subscriptions?
Yeah, I've got to agree with DarkCampainger here.

I mean it's basically impossible for anime games to actually do any damage no matter how bad or ripped they are. For one, most don't show up on the games list. I can understand the feelings you have against them but launching a crusade seems like lunacy. If anything you're just stooping to their level and not solving the problem you originally set out to protest against.

To answer your question, developing a quality Naruto game is like purchasing a 747 with a suicide bomber included. It just doesn't take a genius to know the ride's gonna be fun but it'll end in flames.

Like DC said, why not make something original and at the very least take some subscription bonuses for the trouble.
Anime games on BYOND have a bad reputation because they are garbage. They don't have to be, they just are. Anime is just a theme and most people realize that it is technically possible to create a good game that also has an anime theme (there is nothing to be proven wrong here). While this is technically possible, the reason why anime games have a bad reputation is because the people capable of making decent games tends to be separate from the group of people who choose to make anime-themed games.
I appreciate the concerns of legal actions, but the point is more a physical proof that Anime games can be more than garbage. Most byond gurus always talk about how anime games can be done well, and theres nothing stopping that, but then why arent there any? No one's actually trying, thats the problem. I just want to not just say that anime games can be redeemed, but prove it with an actual game. With my abilities as a designer and programmer, i do feel that, with help, i can make a decent game. By help, i mean someone who knows Naruto. Im jumping in clueless, and even though i could just look up all of the information, i may as well drag along some hopeful soul along for the ride. They get to help on a decent Naruto game, and i dont have to talk to only myself during the development process. I will most likely tutor this person on game development, and what pitfalls to avoid, as i do want someone less experienced for both the sake of their learning and my superiority complex :/
Most byond gurus always talk about how anime games can be done well, and theres nothing stopping that, but then why arent there any? No one's actually trying, thats the problem.

Because it makes far more sense for someone who's a decent developer to produce original material that they can be proud of, rather than legally dubious material that probably won't be advertised on the website because it's a fangame.

Purposely setting out to prove a point by making a Naruto game is just shooting yourself in the foot: you've proven it's possible to produce a well-made and polished piece of intellectual property infringement that we have to hide in case someone notices it.

Rather than proving you can make a good -anime- game, just prove you can make a good -game.-
The point you're trying to prove; "anime games can be more than garbage," is redundant. Games can be more than garbage. (Anime) games can be more than garbage.

It doesn't mean people should make anime games. It means people should make games that aren't garbage generally.
If you haven't seen it already, you may want to view this post I made. The replies in it make some good points related to this, in my opinion.

I would personally recommend making your goal be to prove a good game inspired by an Anime can be made without copying the Anime and making it into a rip or another copyright infringement problem.

It would definitely be a bit more work, but since you're not very familiar with Naruto it would probably balance out to a similar level of work.

I can see how this might be a bit different from your goal, but I think your point would still get across, you would get more out of it, and I would really enjoy seeing someone with some actual talent setting a proper example for the Anime fans of BYOND; so why not give it a shot?
In response to Solomn Architect
When you decide to base your game off a TV show, you're immediately making lots of decisions about what the game will and won't have. The gameplay ends up being something generic that fits within the parameters of the show.

Solomn Architect wrote:
the point is more a physical proof that Anime games can be more than garbage. Most byond gurus always talk about how anime games can be done well, and theres nothing stopping that, but then why arent there any? No one's actually trying, thats the problem.

People are trying. The problem is that, like you, they're going about it the wrong way. Anime games end up being garbage because too much emphasis is put on the theme. This will cause problems whether you're making an anime-themed game or not. When developers do this, the theme often dictates many of the design decisions, resulting in a more generic game that the developer isn't heavily invested in (since they're not putting as many of their own ideas into the game).

Tetris could have been Naruto-themed (had Naruto existed at the time), all they'd have to do is make the blocks look like Naruto characters and the game would have been just as interesting and popular. However, had someone set out to make a Naruto game, they'd have never thought to make a game about making complete rows using falling blocks. Come up with ideas for the game first and worry about the theme later.
In response to Forum_account
Forum_account wrote:
People are trying. The problem is that, like you, they're going about it the wrong way. Anime games end up being garbage because too much emphasis is put on the theme.

This is a bit subjective and comes across as a bit offensive. It's as if you're insinuating that I'm part of the problem and will only create another shitty rip. To emphasise the theme would be only to beat a dead horse. Why do you think my run down of the game only included details on creating an RPG, and not reiterating the pointless details of the Anime.

Though you do have a point, if I can make a decent game out of Naruto, why not do it out of something original, but that also leads to another question, why don't I just make something decent with a subject matter that doesn't bore or annoy the hell out of me? Which also begs the question that if all decent IP Anime's will be converted to original concepts, should all IP Copyright Anime games just be given up on for those original concepts?

That Anti-Anime Conformist inside of me is screaming yes, and I'm inclined to listen to him.
In response to Solomn Architect
Solomn Architect wrote:
To emphasise the theme would be only to beat a dead horse.

By "emphasis" I mean that you're putting an emphasis on the theme by selecting one so early in the game's development.

It's as if you're insinuating that I'm part of the problem and will only create another shitty rip.

If you want to make an RPG and don't select a theme, anything is possible. You can come up with ideas for interesting game mechanics and there's no reason you can't put them in the game. When you select a theme you close a lot of doors. All game mechanics have to fit within the theme. In this case the theme is so specific that the only gameplay that can fit within the Naruto universe ends up being very generic. It's not a matter of ripping vs. writing your own code or a matter of ability, this development method just isn't a good way to make games. This isn't offensive - I'm not saying that you're a bad game developer, just that you're thinking about using a bad game development method.

Suppose you have an idea to create an RPG where characters grow by merging or trading parts. There are many different themes this can fit within. Maybe the characters are monsters that you breed to create more powerful ones. Maybe the characters are robots whose parts are interchangeable, or maybe the robots combine together to form larger robots. Maybe the characters are cyborgs whose limbs can be interchanged. Maybe the characters are animals who learn special abilities from each other. If you had decided from the start that it'll be a Naruto game, you may not be able to find a way to make this game mechanic work within the Naruto universe (you're also less likely to think of things like this in the first place because you're not thinking of ideas for an RPG, you're thinking of ideas for a Naruto RPG).
In response to Forum_account
Actually, the point of my focus would be on the RPG elements. I understand that, as a game developer, my task is to create an entertaining game for my players, not retell a story or explain a setting. You also pointed out the need for a core statement. Ive made a post before on developing games, the big one was make a core statement to base it around.
I used the template, "My game is a [genre] where players [complete a task] by [performing an action] in order to [gain something]."
This keeps focus off of the theme and onto the gameplay, such as, "My game is an Action Rpg where players defeat enemies and overcome challenges by way of combat and skills in order to progress their character further and gain power." Thats generic enough to be any Action Rpg, while leaving the theme open for interpretation.
Solomn Architect wrote:
Actually, the point of my focus would be on the RPG elements

That's a very different statement than what you originally said ("I want to make a Naruto Fangame").

This keeps focus off of the theme and onto the gameplay, such as, "My game is an Action Rpg where players defeat enemies and overcome challenges by way of combat and skills in order to progress their character further and gain power." Thats generic enough to be any Action Rpg, while leaving the theme open for interpretation.

That doesn't say much about how the game will work. The problem with focusing on the anime theme is that you'll end up with a generic game. So far you've only provided incredibly high-level descriptions of a generic game. Even though you sound less concerned about the anime theme, with only generic gameplay descriptions you'll still end up with a generic game.

When you're planning a game it's good to be organized but you don't have to take baby steps. If you say things like "it'll be an RPG... where players grow... through combat... which is turn-based..." you can come up with a lengthy description that says absolutely nothing. Instead of focusing on the high-level generic concepts that all games have, figure out the details that are specific to your game. Those are the things that'll make your game fun and interesting.

When you pay attention to superficial or high-level details, you neglect the important things (whether you mean to or not). When someone writes a sentence like "I want to make a DBZ RPG with realtime combat, quests, and PvP", they think their game's design is coming along nicely - they think they've planned 20% of their game when they've really planned nothing. That statement adds zero information to the design. If you believe your design to be 60% complete and you've only been working on superficial or high-level details, you're only going to spend, at most, 40% of your time and energy on the details that actually matter.
Of course a simple statement like that cant compare to any amount of actual work. The point of a core value is to create focus on a game. It gives the game its main method of being fun. If your game is too scattered or tries to cover too many things at once, it gets confusing for both you and your players. The core statement isnt there to make progress, its to set the guide for your game as a whole, but its nothing set in stone, as i said, a guide. Without it though, one might end up with a game that wants one focus, but instead is left with many functions that seem more like mini games than core aspects. I understand where youre coming from though.

(No, im not bad with grammar or punctuation, im just posting from my android phone in case anyone is wondering.)
I feel you missed the point of Forum_account's initial statement in that last post, Solomn. You original stated an intent to make specifically a Naruto game, and his implication was that by specifying a franchise, you tie yourself to existing material and concepts.

This means that a bunch of cool ideas you might have had if you'd just thought, say, 'I want to make a fantasy action-RPG, how should it work? And further to that, to make it interesting and different to what's come before, what cool stuff can I put in it?'

The moment you think 'Naruto,' you track yourself onto thinking about "a Naruto game," and not just "a game." This is bad for creativity, since it is this really generic and yet binding aim. You haven't actually thought of anything that should go into your game, or of a goal for the player or how the challenges will be presented, just that is -has- to conform to how you think of Naruto and Naruto games.

In response to Deathguard
Deathguard wrote:
You haven't actually thought of anything that should go into your game, or of a goal for the player or how the challenges will be presented, just that is -has- to conform to how you think of Naruto and Naruto games.

Incorrect. My game does not have to follow the exact rules of the Naruto series, in fact, very few games based on TV shows or movies do. The only thing I really need to do is slap the name, "Naruto" on it somewhere and add some ninjas with similar powers to the TV show. If you're seriously so intellectually limited to only be able to understand something in the one light in which it's portrayed, then you probably shouldn't be a Game Designer.

You can either A) Conform to the series rules and abide by the rules while making your game, or B) Making your own Generic game and adding a Naruto theme on top of that, not really changing anything.

Each one has it's pro's and con's. Option A is often more consistent but lacks the interesting mechanics which limits your target audience to mainly fans of the series. Option B create a new game where players are free to experience and enjoy with only the limits of the developer, but can often seem incoherent and change the original story by a general margin, thus losing your more story-interested fans. I myself would rather just take my chances with a decent game and lose the fanboys than accept the crude iron gates and railings that option A leads you through, but that's just me.

In short, your claims that by basing a game around a central theme only hurts me and restricts my ability to make an entertaining game are both untrue and highly exaggerated.

Also, the point of making a game like this is actually less about being the first one to make a decent Naruto game, but to hopefully set a new and better standard for existing and new games of the genre. However unlikely this is, the worst thing that can happen to me is no one plays it because it's bad. I lose no money. I lose no valuables. I lose nothing. (Time is relative to the keeper and therefore can't be counted toward the list of things I lose.)

Now that that's over with, may we please get back onto topic with this thread? It seems at though it's been derailed quite harshly. My original question was, "Is this idea worth something? To develop a quality Naruto RPG? Or is it most likely to flop like all of the rips on the HUB right now?"
We are on topic; we're suggesting that it is the second of those two statements, because of some inherent bad design choices in the development of a game following a specific franchise which you aren't closely related to the development of.

If you were related to the original material's development, though, then obviously you're better able to work dynamically with the existing content and create new material, as you'll have a better grasp of the universe and its intricacies, and the game can help to explore where the universe is going, thus appealing to the audience's sense of progression and storytelling.

I'd say that the latter of your two options in that last post is a little misleading and that a game can flop for reasons other than just being a 'rip.'
In response to Solomn Architect
Solomn Architect wrote:
You can either A) Conform to the series rules and abide by the rules while making your game, or B) Making your own Generic game and adding a Naruto theme on top of that, not really changing anything.

That's exactly the problem. You can either make a literal interpretation of the show as a game. It won't be that interesting because instead of putting your own ideas into the game, you're just copying ideas from the show. The other option is to make a generic game and there's nothing interesting about generic games.

Now that that's over with, may we please get back onto topic with this thread? It seems at though it's been derailed quite harshly. My original question was, "Is this idea worth something? To develop a quality Naruto RPG? Or is it most likely to flop like all of the rips on the HUB right now?"

That is what we've been talking about. The anime games on BYOND aren't flops only because they're rips or because their developers aren't skilled, there's a flaw in the process itself. The anime theme limits you in a way that results in boring games. If you don't have your own ideas for a game this limitation might help you. Ideally you'll have your own game ideas and you'll create the best possible game if you don't force yourself to work around unnecessary restrictions.
I would put a lot of money on the fact that i can develop a fun and addictive anime rpg without being forced to either make it too generic and bland, or too strict. It can certainly be done, and i am fairly confident that i can indeed do it. I do feel though that it will be unfairly judged much more harshly than an original concept, just for the fact that its a naruto game.
Solomn Architect wrote:
I would put a lot of money on the fact that i can develop a fun and addictive anime rpg without being forced to either make it too generic and bland, or too strict.

People find BYOND's current anime games fun and addictive, so I'd put money on that too.

It's not a question of whether or not it's possible to make a decent anime game, there's just no reason to bother. It's possible to make a decent game with one arm tied behind your back, but if you're interested in making the best game you can, you might as well use both hands. BYOND game developers need all the help they can get, yet there's a lot of self-sabotage going on (not just the kind we've been talking about here). I don't think it's a coincidence.

I do feel though that it will be unfairly judged much more harshly than an original concept, just for the fact that its a naruto game.

People say they care about originality but they really don't. They're happy to play non-original games if they're fun. When the games aren't fun it's often blamed on the lack of originality, but if you make a decent game people won't be looking for something to pin blame on.
At the very least, if I go through with the Naruto game, I'll be able to create something on a higher level than what's on there now. It should at least appeal to the current gamers on the Anime games right now. It should give them some incentive to see how Anime games can be done better and pressure the other developers to step up their game (No pun intended). What will most likely happen is that I'll create the first project, stay with it for a little bit, and then hand it off to another team with some promise. I don't exactly want to stick with the project, just build it and say, "Yeah, I did that." and move on with my life with other games.
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