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One of my favorite articles of all time from the Ayn Rand Institute is this piece by Leonard Peikoff: "Health Care Is Not A Right"

It's a couple pages long, but a very interesting read. Not only is this article a great example of applied Objectivism, it's a rock-solid rebuttal of the socialized medicine fantasy.

Anyone who is concerned about all the talk of the U.S. Government taking over health care should definitely give this a read. Here's a large excerpt from the beginning of the article:
Most people who oppose socialized medicine do so on the grounds that it is moral and well-intentioned, but impractical; i.e., it is a noble idea—which just somehow does not work. I do not agree that socialized medicine is moral and well-intentioned, but impractical. Of course, it is impractical—it does not work—but I hold that it is impractical because it is immoral. This is not a case of noble in theory but a failure in practice; it is a case of vicious in theory and therefore a disaster in practice. I want to focus on the moral issue at stake. So long as people believe that socialized medicine is a noble plan, there is no way to fight it. You cannot stop a noble plan—not if it really is noble. The only way you can defeat it is to unmask it—to show that it is the very opposite of noble. Then at least you have a fighting chance.

What is morality in this context? The American concept of it is officially stated in the Declaration of Independence. It upholds man's unalienable, individual rights. The term "rights," note, is a moral (not just a political) term; it tells us that a certain course of behavior is right, sanctioned, proper, a prerogative to be respected by others, not interfered with—and that anyone who violates a man's rights is: wrong, morally wrong, unsanctioned, evil.

Now our only rights, the American viewpoint continues, are the rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness. That's all. According to the Founding Fathers, we are not born with a right to a trip to Disneyland, or a meal at McDonald's, or a kidney dialysis (nor with the 18th-century equivalent of these things). We have certain specific rights—and only these.

Why only these? Observe that all legitimate rights have one thing in common: they are rights to action, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. The system guarantees you the chance to work for what you want—not to be given it without effort by somebody else.

The right to life, e.g., does not mean that your neighbors have to feed and clothe you; it means you have the right to earn your food and clothes yourself, if necessary by a hard struggle, and that no one can forcibly stop your struggle for these things or steal them from you if and when you have achieved them. In other words: you have the right to act, and to keep the results of your actions, the products you make, to keep them or to trade them with others, if you wish. But you have no right to the actions or products of others, except on terms to which they voluntarily agree.

To take one more example: the right to the pursuit of happiness is precisely that: the right to the pursuit—to a certain type of action on your part and its result—not to any guarantee that other people will make you happy or even try to do so. Otherwise, there would be no liberty in the country: if your mere desire for something, anything, imposes a duty on other people to satisfy you, then they have no choice in their lives, no say in what they do, they have no liberty, they cannot pursue their happiness. Your "right" to happiness at their expense means that they become rightless serfs, i.e., your slaves. Your right to anything at others' expense means that they become rightless.

That is why the U.S. system defines rights as it does, strictly as the rights to action. This was the approach that made the U.S. the first truly free country in all world history—and, soon afterwards, as a result, the greatest country in history, the richest and the most powerful. It became the most powerful because its view of rights made it the most moral. It was the country of individualism and personal independence.


I like how that essay does nothing to debunk or 'unmask' the problem with socialized health care, it just prances around on an idiotic notion that people have no more than the rights listed to them in the constitution. Not only is this incorrect, but it's stupid!
Devourer Of Souls wrote:
it just prances around on an idiotic notion that people have no more than the rights listed to them in the constitution.

No, it describes how the constitution outlines the right to action, ie: "the pursuit of happiness". It goes on to explain why entitlements are never rights.

Example: You don't have a right to a BYOND Membership; you have the right to earn the money to purchase one.
We're all entitled to die miserable, painful deaths because we can't afford proper health care. Yay! No wonder suicide is so popular.
That is basically what Silk is trying to imply, yes. A "McDonalds Meal", a "Trip to Disneyland", and a BYOND Membership are all luxuries. IE, they are things which are not necessary to live. Healthcare is not in the same category.

As someone from a low income family, let me elaborate on a recent situation that has arose from this very topic.

Several years ago, my sister came down with pnuemonia and was very sick, and we had to take her to the hospital for treatment. She got treated and recovered, and we had a bill of about 1,200 dollars. As we barely get by as it is, we couldn't make payments on it unless we wanted to give up other such luxuries... like electricity. Or food. Or our apartment.

Flash forward to 2009. We receive a letter stating that the hospital is going to garnish our wages for the (now 1,500) hospital bill we couldn't afford to pay. Again, at a time where we can't really afford to pay anything extra, and a situation that is putting us in a very real financial crisis that we will likely only be able to solve by filing for Bankruptcy.

Is this right, Silk? Was the 'right' thing to do there let my sister get sicker and very realistically chance her death because we couldn't afford treatment? Or is the right thing to do what we did, but allow the medical system to financially screw us as they please?

The only reason these jackasses are doing Healthcare like they are is because they've likely never had to need it when they couldn't afford it.
Devourer Of Souls wrote:
Is this right, Silk? Was the 'right' thing to do there let my sister get sicker and very realistically chance her death because we couldn't afford treatment?

I'm not Silk, but yes. If you're not rich enough to afford healthcare you're scum and should die. After all, it is the American way.
SilkWizard wrote:
Devourer Of Souls wrote:
it just prances around on an idiotic notion that people have no more than the rights listed to them in the constitution.

No, it describes how the constitution outlines the right to action, ie: "the pursuit of happiness". It goes on to explain why entitlements are never rights.

Example: You don't have a right to a BYOND Membership; you have the right to earn the money to purchase one.

What about the right to live?
Regardless of whether or not you agree with socialized medicine, I hope everyone realizes that the current American health care system is -fucked up-.

Reading threads like this and this will really help you understand this plain and simple. Compare the stories of the original posters (Americans) to the experiences of others in foreign countries. It's insane.
Devourer Of Souls wrote:
Healthcare is not in the same category.

The fact that you need health care doesn't entitle you to it.


Devourer Of Souls wrote:
Flash forward to 2009. We receive a letter stating that the hospital is going to garnish our wages for the (now 1,500) hospital bill we couldn't afford to pay.

When you took your sister in to get treated, the fact that the hospital might one day garnish your wages in order to pay for the bill was something that you were willing to accept. You made a fair trade in which you understood the terms; her health for your money. Now you're griping about it?

The doctors who treated your sister when to school for years upon years and paid a great deal of money for their education. Are you saying that you are entitled to their services without compensating them for the hard work and abilities? Here you are all concerned about someone garnishing your wages when you're against doctors even having a wage!


Tiberath wrote:
What about the right to live?

Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action; the right to life means the right to engage in self-sustaining and self-generated action, which means: the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support, the furtherance, the fulfillment and the enjoyment of his own life.
Airjoe wrote:
Reading threads like this and this will really help you understand this plain and simple. Compare the stories of the original posters (Americans) to the experiences of others in foreign countries. It's insane.


The baby situation seems pretty fair to me. 9 days in the hospital after a C-Section and 3-weeks in the ICU for the baby for $20,000 out of pocket? In terms of value for value, that's pretty equitable. Or perhaps the father wouldn't want his premature child to have access to modern medical technology and a highly trained staff of doctors?

The other example is either a blatant lie or an extreme example of a moron who needs a new policy.

I don't get health care through an employer, hence I've had to purchase a more expensive individual plan. I only pay $240 a month. I spent two days in the Emergency Room last month for $100 a day out of pocket, and paid $15 for a prescription.
and that no one can forcibly stop your struggle for these things or steal them from you if and when you have achieved them. In other words: you have the right to act, and to keep the results of your actions, the products you make, to keep them or to trade them with others, if you wish. But you have no right to the actions or products of others, except on terms to which they voluntarily agree.

<--------

Taxes. I win.
Healthcare in the US is screwed up by insurance companies. One recent example that just happened to me was when I broke my finger earlier this summer. Clearly, I needed it to get treated by a specialist (I went to a hand doctor) and I do have insurance.

Now, I have a $2000 dollar deductible on medical expenses through my insurance and I was expecting to cover quite a bit of that. However, when I received my bill (and remember the insurance company wasn't paying anything at this point), I noticed that the amount I had to pay was reduced...severely reduced. Basically, the insurance company negotiates with hospitals and tells them that unless they want their insured clients to go somewhere else, they will give them much cheaper rates.

I am not saying that I feel healthcare is a right, because I don't. But I feel it is also not right that hospitals collect more money from someone who does not have insurance.


And even though it was never stated that Obama's healthcare plan is socialist, I would like to go ahead and state that it is not.

Health insurance for everyone is not about providing free healthcare for everyone. It's about picking a better system. Regardless of whether you approve with Canada's healthcare or not, there are many statistics that support that on average Canadians much pay less and live just as long, if not longer, than US citizens. While the plan isn't to simply start going with Canada's plan because it works well there, it doesn't mean we can't learn from them and figure out how to better our current system.

Just because Universal Health care isn't a right, does not mean it isn't the superior system.
As soon as we abandon this, "I don't want to pay for my neighbors ills" mentality, we will truly be a better place.
Foomer wrote:
We're all entitled to die miserable, painful deaths because we can't afford proper health care. Yay! No wonder suicide is so popular.

Well at least you have a right to suicide.
Stupot wrote:
Just because Universal Health care isn't a right, does not mean it isn't the superior system.

This article is about how "Universal Healthcare" is A.) immoral, and B.) completely unsustainable. How is that superior to what we have now? It simply means more government intervention, which is what is driving up costs in the first place.


Stupot wrote:
While the plan isn't to simply start going with Canada's plan because it works well there

Actually, this just isn't true. Mortality rates for treatable conditions are much higher in Canada due to wait list times. It's no wonder, considering that the average waiting time for a specialist is about 18 weeks.

Imagine being diagnosed with breast cancer and having to wait months for a surgery that you should be getting the next day. Meanwhile the cancer cells multiply to the point where the disease becomes inoperable. Fun.
Not being American, first let me admit that my opinion is likely unread and inconsistent. However, it seems to me the central points of the debate here are founded much more on the underlying semantics and interpretation of the definition of "right", than they are a practical issue. Do we have a right to life, or just to sustain it; or otherwise, are we entitled to our lives, or just to the act of living itself? That's a good question -- however, it is also impractical. Human life holds a much more fundamental value than anything one's rights may dictate, and thus the act of providing 'free health care' - should it help sustain life - seems moral and just to me.

This is all based on the assumption that free health care is more necessary than it is convenient. That is, if free health care could actually help save lives. So do rebuke me if this is not the case. (And again, it is an uneducated opinion and it is possible I have no idea what I'm talking about... lol!)
Toadfish wrote:
Human life holds a much more fundamental value than anything one's rights may dictate, and thus the act of providing 'free health care' - should it help sustain life - seems moral and just to me.

In order to make that statement, you have to be able to answer the following questions:

1.) What makes human life valuable?
2.) Why do humans have rights?

From there, you have to explain why forcing people to sacrifice their rights makes sense based upon your definitions.


Toadfish wrote:
That's a good question -- however, it is also impractical.

Impractical in what sense? Are you saying the concepts of rights, values, and personal freedoms are impractical? If so, how does one live in a practical world?
"Of course, it is impractical-it does not work-"

I've yet to see hard proof that it is so impractical. This seems to be a faulty assumption and there is evidence to the contrary. But of course, all evidence is subject to whether we believe it to be true. You've clearly got your opinion and I know there are sources out there that will support your theories. There are also sources out there that claim that that socialized medicine does indeed work. There's no point in either one of us attempting to drag up sources to support different theories.

And, as I stated, the US isn't planning on doing a blanket replacement of our system with the Canadian system, rather that there are things we can learn from that system. It's not free healthcare for all, it's affordable healthcare for all.

But, I digress. Since the article you quoted was concerning socialized medicine, and since the plan the US is going with is not socialized medicine, I guess I'm off-topic.
Stupot wrote:
There's no point in either one of us attempting to drag up sources to support different theories.

So hard facts about wait times and patient mortality are completely irrelevant in a debate about the merits of Canada's health care system?


Stupot wrote:
But, I digress. Since the article you quoted was concerning socialized medicine, and since the plan the US is going with is not socialized medicine, I guess I'm off-topic.

This is a common tactic that supporters of this system in the US use.

Explain to me how government intervention into health care isn't a socialized system. Explain how government overseeing and running a public health insurance policy which tax payers and businesses are forced to pay into isn't socialist.

By the very definition of the word, that is a socialized scheme. It may not be quite as socialized as Canada's system, but that doesn't make it any less immoral. When the government tries to artificially drive down the cost of health care the whole thing is going to blow up in their (our) faces.
Thanks for responding Silk:

As for the first question, I don't believe defining why human life is valuable is necessary. You are posing me a question I need to answer from a moral standpoint, but our entire moral system is based upon the need for human life, and questioning it from a moral standpoint is subsequently futile. I don't believe the value of human life is needs be a product of moral reasoning (where moral reasoning means determining the morals and values of a moral system), but that moral reasoning, in the first place, needs to be a product of this human life. I am not saying it is impossible to answer this question, but I am saying we do not need an answer to it, wherever morality (and not pure philosophy alone) is concerned.

The problem of justifying human life is also a problem of justifying morality itself. And for these reasons I don't believe it is necessary to question human life, just as it is not necessary to question morality -- it is just something we accept, perhaps because we fear for ourselves, perhaps because we fear for others, or due to any other reason. We accept it because it suits us. It's not that we shouldn't question these things, but that questioning them has no practical use (that is, if the intention here was to question morality itself, the debate of whether free health care is moral or not is pointless in the first place). Arguing whether we are entitled to life or not is, therefore, impractical.

Once we've established that, I can answer the second question: humans have rights so that they may sustain life. One might respond to this, that humans have rights to sustain free will, and that free will is the freedom to act within the constraints placed upon you, and because of that free health care is not part of your 'rights'. This could very well be true, but even so, life should never be a constraint. It doesn't matter whether by strict definition, our rights make us entitled to 'life', because life is a much more fundamental concept than this definition of rights and free will.
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