Around BYOND one is often presented with people marketing, or comparing, their skills especially while browsing the Classified Ads forum. But are these 'advanced coders' and these 'expert coders' really capable of delivering implementations worth the money you'd have to invest? And why do some of them use the term programmer, while others call themselves coder (or artist and iconner, for that matter)?
So far, in most every case that I encountered the ones actually referencing themselves as programmer would not only provide a more <a href="
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/ psp7761121.pdf">accurate self-assessment, but try to apply the basic concepts of object-oriented programming.
The 'coder' however already displays a lack of proper terminology, as s/he only ever learned to/by editing foreign source code, instead of working through the basics. They get lost when you try to explain that the reference to the instance of an object is not properly passed on as argument and struggle when confronted with challenges they have not seen realised in source code before, despite the 'expert' tag that they like to assign to themselves.
Now, what is a programmer and how do you rate one?
This is actually a very tricky question, but one might get an idea when looking at a mechanic.
While people often think that producing a 'working' (in their limited test scenario) functionality for some game grants them the tile 'coder', we would hardly call somebody who can repair a bicycle a mechanic.
And do you really need to know confusing terms like encapsulation, inheritance and so on and so forth when all you need to do is write some source code? Soon as you talk to programmers and soon as you realize that there are more quality marks for an implementation than 'working', you are going to find yourself forced around these terms. It is, again, the very same with a mechanic. What would a mechanic say if you could not provide this specific tool to him when requested, because you simply didn't know the name? Terms for concepts allow easy communication, because they save the hazard of describing a concept in detail.
I'd be eager to hear some opinions on this and I actually think I struggle on expressing myself properly here, which is ironic, given the subject at hand!
Great topic, btw.
It might be more convenient to break down the convention of "coder" and "programmer" into the parts of any trade: Materials and Tools - programming languages, expertise in specific constructs of the language, common code/library resources, integrated development environmental tools, ... Design - project management, algorithm development, ... Technique - demonstrations, integration, code efficiency, code management, ... Troubleshooting - debugging. When you see a request along the lines of "how do I build a house?" you'll know that the problem is best answered when deconstructed and addressed on a line item basis... same with software projects. | |
As devils advocate... and self proclaimed protector of the peoples and because I'm staying home sick today...
Coders code first and think only when absolutely necessary. Their intelligence levels vary significantly while their patience levels are near zero. They aim to reach the goal as quickly as possible. They can get stuff done, but don't expect anything too fancy and I wouldn't build my penthouse atop their frameworks. They are an excited bunch and don't appreciate the slow lumbering fancy-pants programmers who want to do everything the hard way. However, there are times when they have to put up with a little abuse because they need some help figuring out a really "complex" problem. Programmers invest in understanding before coding. They design and engineer and then try to achieve results based on their understandings. They typically will have a high level of intelligence and patience. It may take them longer to reach some goals but in the long run, they will often times reach the longer term goals with significantly higher quality. Programmers find "coders" to be annoying thoughtless creatures. They cannot comprehend why their kind even bother to continue breathing. However, they cannot help themselves when it comes to slapping "coders" in the face with a tinge of berated "here ya go knowledge" now and again. There is in fact a middle category for people who fall between the cracks. These folks are coders who have fair intelligence and some patience. Maturity may be the biggest factor of the "Pro-coder" types. They are willing to learn and invest but at the same time, they constantly feel the pressure of life's little responsibilities and so their patience is constantly tested. All groups can be found to sway in and out of the other groups for one reason or another. Perhaps in transition or it could be the occasionally one time thing. It's clear to me that all types are equally important and absolutely needed to balance one another out. Many "coders" come up with many ideas and then churn out crappy prototypes all the time. They are also a constant reminder that things could be made easier. Programmers sense a good idea and then tackle the problem the way it should have been done in the first place. They provide the reminder that higher quality rules all. Pro-Coders hardly get anything done and just stand by as the abuse flys back and forth from both sides until they eventually squeeze one thing out before giving up on the whole idea of being a game developer. Things like becoming a Pro Frisbee Golf player start to sound reasonable. It can be a virtuous cycle provided each group continuously feeds the other with the right level of positive and negative energy. The terminologies (programmer/coder) thrown about in various postings or discussions do not necessarily say anything official about the person(s) using them. Although you could derive hasty conclusions but I don't see the point in calling out a persons "type". Seems more like the only reason to draw lines is for self serving egotistical desires which never result in anything good. [edited] Seems like petty stuff that won't help anyone. If the goal is to make higher quality games and bring more people to BYOND, I agree with it. Otherwise, it's just noise. I claim no title and accept no title. ts | |
You start with your alphabet and numerals. Then you work on words and fitting them into sentences. Then you work on grammar (usually). The following point is loosely strung together but I think you will understand what I mean and I'm agreeing with you but emphasizing the importance of starting out. Some of us had a jump start on programming, maturity, socialism and etc before trying to become a social programmer. A 16 year old can only be expected to do so well given so little prior experience. Before you even try to learn the alphabet, you spent years learning a ton of other stuff that eventually lead you to the realization that these squiggles in front of you are some how important to these bigger people. So brain, please pay attention and try to remember it. :) ts | |
Some more thoughts as I mull about and take meds...
I'm totally against this way of thinking. I'm going to nay the post and not to be a troll but to cast my vote on the subject. The following is not directed at the poster or anyone in particular. It's just me venting about my experiences. It's just segregation propaganda. I don't approve of the trolling I see. I don't approve of the lashings people get for trying to help. If someone posts a lame question, and someone posts a lame reply, I see this as an opportunity to help two people. We should feel good about that opportunity if we enjoy helping others. If you see the same situation as an opportunity to berate people, you should seriously rethink your agenda in life. The forums are a place to ask for help but there also a place to socialize. ts | |
Tsfreaks wrote:
It's just segregation propaganda. I don't approve of the trolling I see. I don't approve of the lashings people get for trying to help. I pretty much support what Tsfreaks has mentioned below and before. As far as that quote I selected out; There is no lame question, only potentially lame outcomes. We are human. | |
Tsfreaks;
In a dull world filled with futile development and irrational design, one is filled with an obligation to put an end to this vicious cycle once and for all. The primary issue lies within the lack of understanding what design is. One cannot design effectively without grasping the fundamental principles of efficient production. In this article, I shall provide knowledge that once properly applied will drastically improve your creations. ------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Originality ( Not stupidity) The first step of design is creating a vision. What must you create? What type of experience do you wish to provide players with? Is there an experience of this sort already existing? If so, how can I make my experience greater? Building a better mousetrap is always acceptable. Turning a mousetrap into a platter of provolone is not, for now you have completely altered the initial purpose therefore altering the sastisfaction which can result in failure. If you are to construct upon an existing theory, do it with keen caution. Do not drink from the well of moronic despair and turn gold to copper. ----------------------------------------------------------- Stay tuned for Vol. 2 of my design philosophies. Release is scheduled for February 7th, 2010. | |
Toadfish wrote some stuff:
... Better than Proteen's so far, just about. | |
Toadfish wrote:
a bunch of stuff... Your just suggesting that people need to learn. I think we all agree although we each emphasize "need" in our own way. Some of "you" think they absolutely must learn or else. Some of "us" think they should learn whenever they decide to learn. Here's an analogy that tries to explain how I see some of the "teaching" efforts I see on BYOND. Environment. Classroom full of thugs and gangsters. They all want to have fun, rules suck, teachers suck, and being here sucks. Goal. Teach them math. One possible solution: Teacher arrives in a suit and tie with nose in air and passes out Calculus books to the whole class. The teacher hardly looks up to take in the dynamics of the classroom. Teacher thinks; "They are students, I am teacher, end of story". Teach says "Read the book and don't raise your hand unless you have an intelligent question to ask.". Now for classroom reaction. They burn the books, they start throwing torn out pages as airplanes, and they piss in the teachers coffee just because that's funny. The morale of the story is to make it a point to understand and respect the classroom dynamic. Get their attention with topics that relate to their interests. With the classroom above, I might start out with a challenge that they can have fun with. Take them out into the parking lot and show them an abandoned car. Time how long the classroom can part the car and tell them its a race against last years class. Let them "win" the challenge because there was no class last year. Then have each one write down how much they could sell each part for. Then go back in the classroom and do a little behind the scenes math exercise that determines which person would make the most money and why. Point being, if you want someone to learn, you need to bring the teaching to them instead of the other way around. Trying to force people to comply with a published official set of rules and regulations they don't understand or care about will never work. 15 year old little Timmie wants to have the coolest punching bag anyone has ever seen. He will not care about things like "inheritance" or "originality" for years to come. ts | |
Your accurate self-assessment link is busted.
The requested URL /members/ http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf was not found on this server. | |
I agree that it's all about terminology. A programmer takes pride in what he does, takes what he learns understands it and uses it.
A coder copies and paste what he finds. He knows what basic things are he might even know how to do a few things himself. If a coder is asked by another programmer to do something though, and the programmer uses specific terminology the coder is going to be lost. Also, like you said if asked to create something they have never seen before they will probably also be clueless. Though I would like to consider myself a programmer I would only be a 2 1/2 on a scale of 1(Newbie) to 10(Dan). | |
Tsfreaks wrote:
... ts Tsfreaks; Why must you begin to troll? This is not a sanctuary for the meeting of fools. Theres an equation for the thought process of you, which I will deduce below: 1. Fear: You cower from that which you do not comprehend. Rather than beseech me for wisdom, you have desperately attempted to eradicate the legitimacy of my work. Your enervated antics and useless display of irony will not cause me nor the rest of this community to falter. 2. Jealousness: It is apparent to us all that you have a significant quantity of covetousness within your heart. You strive to become heroic within this world, which is a baronial objective indeed, however you have failed to select the appropriate method to reach your desired destination. If there is a way I can assist you in becoming more than what you are now, I am always available for consultation. | |
Toadfish wrote:
More stuff... Cmon.. really? I'm not sure why you would take offense to anything I said. Get off your makeshift high horse before you fall off and hurt yourself. Honestly, really? By the way, please go read the definition of Troll before you wrongly accuse someone of it and then immediately follow it up with a post only a Troll could strum up. ts | |
Tsfreaks wrote:
... ts Tsfreaks; If doing that will help you sleep at night and provide you with your daily ego satisfaction, then so be it. -------------------------------- I would like to begin by thanking everyone for being interested in my last volume of design philosophy. I also want to thank those who responded positively to the article, rather than dish out mindless insults and jokes to try and destroy something they weren't intelligent enough to create themselves. I was contacted and told I should release Vol. 2 a bit early by some well known members of the BYOND establishment. I was also reminded by those people that there are many members of the BYOND that have low vocabularies, so I will keep the wording difficulty to a minimum. Thread Disclaimer: I am sick of people trying to ruin my reputation. Therefore if you respond to this article negatively and stupidly, I will report you to the BYOND authorities which are Dantom and Nadrew. I will also call the police if I feel like you are trying to pose a threat on my safety. Last time I explained originality. Today we will be discussing something different. Simplicity ( avoid complexity): Players tend to join games that are easy to play. No one wants to log into a game where you have to spend 20 minutes reading some huge guide. People enjoy being able to log into a game and start having fun immediately. Keep in mind that not all players have patience. Do not bore your audience with over-complicated gameplay and storylines. Please stay tuned for Vol. 3. If I am contacted by those BYOND members again I will try and release it by tommorow. | |
Toadfish wrote:
Please stay tuned for Vol. 3. If I am contacted by those BYOND members again I will try and release it by tommorow. If I could yea a comment, I would. | |
Toadfish wrote:
If doing that will help you sleep at night and provide you with your daily ego satisfaction, then so be it. Why are you mixing posts? Nobody will have any idea what or who you are talking about. To be clear because I think it needs to be. - I never said anything negative to you or about you in any of my posts. I think your confusing my views and opinions with attacks. - I said nothing that warranted your troll statement. - I said nothing that warranted this response: "If doing that will help you...". If doing what exactly. I'm done trying to make sense of your comments. If you want to have a discussion to clarify matters, we can do that. Page me and we'll work out the obvious misunderstandings. ts -------------------------------- | |
Tsfreaks wrote:
... ts Tsfreaks; I am only working to help and serve the goodness of BYOND by keeping players healthily. | |
I think it's pretty obvious that when people call themselves "coders", they generally have no idea what they are talking about. Admittedly, I was like that when I first started out. I called myself a coder, and had absolutely no idea what anything was. However, I didn't copy source codes. I did work hard to learn and improve, but my lack of knowledge was very great. As I improved, I reached the point where now I always call myself a programmer. Really, there's no difference. In the end, one word is a little more intelligent than the other.
| |
@Toadfish
Ts's posts have been the best ones I've read all week. Toad is severely confused. Ts was being real and you for some reason took it for him being a troll. A long ago, a man once told me "even if it is true, never say you are the best at something, you will be hated". Since then, I've always questioned that reason. Why should we live in a lie? All just because of the simple minded. If you speak to people who are truly at a higher rationality. You'll find that you can speak very logically and that your statements wont be taken in vein. Realness is always confused with rudeness. So one must be careful when to be it. Ts choose this blog thread assuming that type of people would be here. | |
It's on a big scale.
Coder being lesser value/skilled than programmer. Hence why you see tons and tons of "coders" but hardly any "programmers". It makes perfect sense.
There's a lot of coders because there's a lot of mediocre/less-talented people at programming.
Programmers are the higher-end people.
They are the ones who usually dwell in the shadows of BYOND (Or Chatters), and try to ignore BYOND as possible (pretty much the trolling and whatnot).
"While people often think that producing a 'working' (in their limited test scenario) functionality for some game grants them the tile 'coder', we would hardly call somebody who can repair a bicycle a mechanic."
I agree. Most of the people I chat and communicate with haven't a clue what to do. They ask what goes here, what goes there and what happens when you get simple errors such as indentation.
I mean, BYOND pretty much isn't limited to just one way of doing everything, but the DM (or almost any programming language) is like learning another Speaking/Writing language.
You start with your alphabet and numerals. Then you work on words and fitting them into sentences. Then you work on grammar (usually).
If someone fails to follow the steps, they fail to understand that portion.