Fortay (Balancing Units) in Design Philosophy

ID:265845
 
May 20 2008, 11:27 am
As the deadline approaches nearer for the Build Your Own Board Game contest, I need to get my game as faultless. Earlier today I invited a fellow BYOND member, Keeth, to help test my game out. After the game was finished he told me how unbalanced the archer really was, at first I disagreed but as I looked back at previous matches I realized it was true and how unbalanced the whole game was. I’m currently having a lot of trouble trying to balance out the units so I took my 6 basic classes and will ask for help.

Ranger hp=75 attack=15 defense=1 move=3 attack distance=5
Swordsman hp=90 attack=25 defense=3 move=2 attack distance =1
Guard hp=125 attack=20 defense=4 move=2 attack distance =1
Spearman hp=80 attack=15 defense=2 move=3 attack distance =2
Slayer hp=85 attack=10 defense=5 move=4 attack distance =2
Medic/Cleric hp=60 attack=30 defense=2 move=4 attack distance =2 heal power= 30

Feel free to revamp the whole lineup, I seriously need some help with this.
#1 May 20 2008, 12:38 pm
There's no real context given here that makes any of this make sense.
#2 May 20 2008, 2:27 pm
Maybe I didn't pay enough attention during the brief time I was on the server, but I'm with Garthor on this one. Here are some sample questions that you may want to answer:
  • What is your damage formula?
  • Can units move and attack during the same turn?
  • Do map sizes change?
  • What is the formula for using the heal power stat?

With ranged combat, I think the question tends to be: What are the opportunities that a unit has to attack someone? I'd generally argue that the attack stat should decrease as the number of places to attack increases.

The amount of spaces a unit can attack seems like it is (2*attack distance + 1)^2 - 1. If units can move and attack during the same turn then add the number of moves to the attack distance. Either way, the amount of spaces increases quickly. I'm not sure that a -5 attack modifier here and there will cut it. You might need something more along the lines of a square root.

One method might be to consider the maximum map tiles as the maximum number of places that can be attacked. That number could then be the maximum attack stat. You could start each unit's attack stat at that number and then subtract one for each space within the unit's attack range.

The maximum attack stat could then help define hp since you'd know how many hits it would generally take to kill someone.

Movement is tied to defense. I'm tempted to adjust defense and movement based on the maximum map tiles just like attack and attack distance. On one hand, moving towards an opponent does not contribute so perhaps defense should decrease less quickly. On the other, that movement does contribute to attacks so it might be easier to just consider it even.
#3 May 20 2008, 3:09 pm
In response to ACWraith (#2)
I recently recreated every stat for each unit, I believe the now current stats are balanced enough for now, but I will not know until I do some hardcore testing. My damage formula is basically (your attack damage) – (distance between you and the enemy). What decides rather or not the enemy counter-attacks, gets hit, or dodges is yet another simple formula.

Attacker:
Roll (1, 12)

“Attackee”:
(Roll (1, 6) +defense)/2

If the attacker’s total is greater than the “attackee’s” then you win.
If the attacker’s total is lesser tan the “attackee’s” then you lose and the “attackee” will counter-attack.
If both are equal, the “attackee” will dodge the attack.

Once a unit attacks, it can no longer move nor attack for that turn/round. But a unit can move and then attack. The maps do not fluctuate in size but I want them to in a later date. Also, I have not created a heal formula; it’s just if a cleric were to heal you then the enemies would have a chance of also getting healed if they are within a certain range. Though I am leaning towards making the amount you get heal for decrease according to your distances from the healer.
#4 May 20 2008, 6:16 pm
In response to 172.16.0.1 (#3)
Test each class against each other using a nested for loop. Each class vs. class match-up goes for 100 kills at different ranges. Then take the data of who had more kills and adjust its stats until the two classes have reasonably equal success rates based on luck alone (60-40 or 50-50). Run enough iterations and it should be pretty close to how the trend will occur in how the classes rank against each other.
#5 May 21 2008, 1:30 am
I would consider comparing attack strength to defence more closely. If man is covered in plate armour, with a small slit for his eyes, (like the Guard?), then chances are very slim an arrow will harm him, but if it DOES then it is likely to do as much damage as hitting an un-armoured man.

Also, range is a big advantage if you have the same move variable. A Ranger can shoot a Swordsman, wait a turn, move back a bit, and fire again. Defence (right now) doesn't seem to have THAT large an affect, so it's worth less. I would rate each HP as worth 1/5th of a point, each Attack as 2, each Defense as 1, each Move as 2, and each Attack Distance as 3

If you compare these;

Ranger hp=75 attack=15 defense=1 move=3 attack distance=5
Spearman hp=80 attack=15 defense=2 move=3 attack distance =2

Ranger = 15 + 30 + 1 + 6 + 15 = 67
Spearman = 16 + 30 + 2 + 6 + 6 = 60

As an approximation, the Ranger is 10% more valuable to a player than a Spearman. You medic seems hugely overpowered; a healing ability opens up a huge range of new tactics, plus he can move a LOT, and he has the highest attack in the game. Being 20HP below everyone else doesn't really matter that much.



On a slightly unrelated note (though still completely to do with your game (which I am a HUGE fan of!)) - I thought elevation would make a good addition to your game - if you weaken the Ranger, this could be the Ranger's comeback. Should you have a hill or two on a map, then you could mark that as an Area of elevation = 2, whereas the ground has an elevation of 1. Should the Archer fire from an area higher than the target, his penalty for being at long range is reduced by 1 (or 2?) - this would open up a few tactics as well.

I also thought some scenario's would be cool, especially a Seige. An elevated hill in the middle, given to one player, with a barricade on three sides - and an extra unit given to the other. I think that'd be pretty fun.

My apologies for the unrelated ideas, but I hope my idea of balancing may have helped you decide on which direction you are going to go!

~Ease~
#6 May 22 2008, 5:55 am
In response to Ease (#5)
Ease wrote:
I would consider comparing attack strength to defence more closely. If man is covered in plate armour, with a small slit for his eyes, (like the Guard?), then chances are very slim an arrow will harm him, but if it DOES then it is likely to do as much damage as hitting an un-armoured man.

Also, range is a big advantage if you have the same move variable. A Ranger can shoot a Swordsman, wait a turn, move back a bit, and fire again. Defence (right now) doesn't seem to have THAT large an affect, so it's worth less. I would rate each HP as worth 1/5th of a point, each Attack as 2, each Defense as 1, each Move as 2, and each Attack Distance as 3

If you compare these;

Ranger hp=75 attack=15 defense=1 move=3 attack distance=5
Spearman hp=80 attack=15 defense=2 move=3 attack distance =2

Ranger = 15 + 30 + 1 + 6 + 15 = 67
Spearman = 16 + 30 + 2 + 6 + 6 = 60

As an approximation, the Ranger is 10% more valuable to a player than a Spearman. You medic seems hugely overpowered; a healing ability opens up a huge range of new tactics, plus he can move a LOT, and he has the highest attack in the game. Being 20HP below everyone else doesn't really matter that much.



On a slightly unrelated note (though still completely to do with your game (which I am a HUGE fan of!)) - I thought elevation would make a good addition to your game - if you weaken the Ranger, this could be the Ranger's comeback. Should you have a hill or two on a map, then you could mark that as an Area of elevation = 2, whereas the ground has an elevation of 1. Should the Archer fire from an area higher than the target, his penalty for being at long range is reduced by 1 (or 2?) - this would open up a few tactics as well.

I also thought some scenario's would be cool, especially a Seige. An elevated hill in the middle, given to one player, with a barricade on three sides - and an extra unit given to the other. I think that'd be pretty fun.

My apologies for the unrelated ideas, but I hope my idea of balancing may have helped you decide on which direction you are going to go!

~Ease~

Actually, that adding of the stats ideas isn't too bad and I probably will take that into consideration with the next balance.

Elevation is also a good idea that I have been pondering about. I was also thinking that maybe units should be allowed to enter water but at a expense. If they are not a water unit then their movement could decrease as well as their attack power.

I'm also going to add in rooms/in game severs, even though I said I wasn't.