I can see his point, though. Deleting posts due to lack of DM tags will make the community learn and act through precedence and obvious action. A moderator slyly editing their post isn't going to help much.
In response to Lugia319 (#38)
Lugia319 wrote:
My way of moderation is extremely lax. Follow the simple guidelines laid out AT THE TOP OF THE NEW POST POST IN BLACK AND BLUE and I won't bug you.

And this is what I want to fix ... Those guidelines in black and blue are .... Crap and the posting guidelines link is even worse..

Can you please take a break calm down and come back when you aren't acting like a child.

@Lige I agree
@Syne Mage - if the moderation and the guidelines were set properly we wouldn't have this issue, the mods can do as they please they don't have a guideline to my knowledge that is public .. Only thing I can find is that they can remove anything they find Inappropriate...

I am expecting this topic to be locked with a poor excuse soon eg to many posts, or totally off topic when we aren't.

So I will say it again since some people don't understand.

Guidelines for moderators and users need to be revamped with proper instructions on what is right and wrong and mods can and can't do and if I can dispute what they have done to the post ...

Proper communication between mods and users is needed I find that if something has been removed I have to type http://BYOND.com/members/modname to even talk to them to dispute their or my actions...

Warnings need to implemented, mods need to have a different colour name so users are aware and oh so much more...
The situation that triggered this debate was a rather unusual one, and I believe Stephen001 explained it pretty well. I'm not sure what kind of user guideline we could have possibly written to have avoided it, and I expect there will be many more equally-unusual situations in the future.

It's simply infeasible to cover all actions that are "inappropriate" sufficiently, and any attempt to do so would create a document so large and cumbersome that users wouldn't read it anyway.

Anyways, you're welcome to prove me wrong by trying your hand at writing-up such a document.
In response to DarkCampainger (#42)
DarkCampainger wrote:
Anyways, you're welcome to prove me wrong by trying your hand at writing-up such a document.

It is clearly not up to me to write something .. its up to the Tom to talk to the mods to deem what is appropriate or not...

"It's simply infeasible to cover all actions that are "inappropriate" sufficiently, and any attempt to do so would create a document so large and cumbersome that users wouldn't read it anyway."

Now you are just being plain stupid ... I want a revamp if you haven't read all the other god damn posts where I mention that!
In response to A.T.H.K (#43)
A.T.H.K. wrote:
Guidelines for moderators and users need to be revamped with proper instructions on what is right and wrong and mods can and can't do and if I can dispute what they have done to the post ...

I read "proper instructions on what is right and wrong" as some sort of list of specific actions. What did you have in mind?
Can you do me a favour and just read over everything again..
In response to DarkCampainger (#42)
DarkCampaigner wrote:
It's simply infeasible to cover all actions that are "inappropriate" sufficiently, and any attempt to do so would create a document so large and cumbersome that users wouldn't read it anyway.

Anyways, you're welcome to prove me wrong by trying your hand at writing-up such a document.

You don't need that document but you do need a document that describes how moderators should handle different kinds of situations. The moderators are quick to delete posts and lock threads. If they gave public warnings, everyone could see the warning, see that the thread was headed in a bad direction, and learn about what the moderators consider unacceptable. If the mods give private warnings and delete posts they don't like, there's no way for people to learn what's not acceptable. The moderators should be people who lead by example but when their actions are often invisible, they're not setting an example.
Once again my post has been removed ...sigh... basically I don't care about it.

But the reason it was removed and the rules implied with the removal make no sense...

****deleted your post 'Shell de hospedagem barata!': English only on the front page. Sorry. [Link]

I fail to see where it says English Language only...

BYOND has it's far amount of non English speaking users or users that do not know the English language at all...

If I actually knew that these are English only forums I wouldn't of posted. But no.

English only on the front page - Sure that's fine but you deleted the whole post if it was to be moved to the second most newly posted topic then it wouldn't be front page logical?
First of all it was the exact same post as my prior one in English, If I was to link back to the English version the post would of still been removed.

Second of all are you that incompetent you can't use Google translate? If you are using Google Chrome you would of noticed a bar up the top that says Translate to English..

Just because a previous mod has done so doesn't give you the right. It is not noted anywhere and you were once again pretty quick to delete it.

As it is not noted in the posting guidelines I think you should restore it as I have not violated any rules set in place.

I look forward to seeing my post restored in the next couple of hours.

Thank you.
In Lige's defense, Tom had been enforcing that one for quite a while before-hand.

In A.T.H.K's defense, we really don't have that one written down anywhere.
"You've been fighting everything that deals with you, even if you're in the wrong. It's like you seek out ways to get our attention, then get upset when we take action."

I am fighting the principle that moderators have no guidelines publicly available and technically can do what they want, Just because these problems involve myself has nothing to do with it if you didn't remove posts so quickly or had a warning system we wouldn't be here and it wouldn't be about just ME, You don't seem to understand that at all.

If no rules like the above are set then technically my post should still be up and will be up in the next few hours by yourself restoring it.

There was no need to be a smart arse as you are a moderator one would of though you would be a bit more polite.
You removed the post and supplied a somewhat confusing explanation as to why.

If the post was moved down one more spot it wouldn't be on the front page but you just removed it.

If you don't have the option to rearrange the order of posts perhaps this should be something you request being a moderator you should have some sort of communication other than the forums to interact with Tom and/or Lummox to do so.

I still stand that BYOND needs to revamp the posting guidelines have a set of moderator guidelines and put in place Forum_Accounts ideas...
I'm not entirely sure the ability to re-arrange posts is the ultimate issue there. The idea of posts being in English is one that extends to all of the BYOND forums. If you want to provide translations of your posts tacked on to the English version of the post, then that's fine and dandy.
In response to Audeuro (#52)
It doesn't bother me that it was removed.

You still have to agree things need to be set in stone so users have something to go off apart from what already exists which is pretty poor for a standard of posting.
I do admit that we could probably stand for a revised set of guidelines, but a lot of what we've got is common sense. If you feel like you shouldn't be doing it, then don't be doing it. What bothers me more is that we can't split/join threads together. Your most recent issue would've been more easily resolved by just tacking the translated thread onto the English thread, maybe editing the English post with the translated title, and then leaving a note on the thread about it.
The moderators get bent out of shape over lots of things that don't affect them. Why does it matter if a post isn't in English? All it means is that the OP is less likely to get responses since this is a forum of mainly English speakers. Why would that bother a moderator? While "delete it!" is the knee-jerk moderator response to everything, a normal, decent human being would respond by saying something like:

"Most of the users on this forum are strictly English speakers, so here's a translated version of your post.... [translated text]"

There are lots of other issues that moderators are far too concerned about. What's the problem with someone posting on an old thread? Same as the non-English problem - they're just less likely to get a response. If you want to take any action, just post in the thread saying "this is an old thread, here (*link*) may be a better way to get in contact with this user."

Moderators also make a big deal out of "pointless" comments or ones with little content. Again, what's the big deal? Often these posts are only pointless to the moderators because they aren't part of the discussion. If you make a post and someone replies by saying "I agree.", their post is likely to get deleted - even though it'd be important to you to know that person agreed with you. If the post truly has no content, the same problem applies again - they're just not likely to generate further responses and discussion.

Moderators should be helpful people, but if you look through the log of admin activity you don't see a lot of helping going on. Being helpful can often be achieved without using any admin capabilities. The most helpful actions are often just replies, not editing or deleting existing comments. People don't like having their things messed with (which, if I had to guess, is probably the reason why the moderators are so quick to delete things - they don't like people messing with their forum!)
In response to Forum_account (#55)
One issue with posts in another language is that they're difficult to moderate. Nowadays, you may be able to pass them through a free online translator, but that's assuming the poster's spelling and grammar is perfect and slang-free (unlikely, especially for the kinds of posts that might need moderation--ie flame wars). I also think "less likely to get responses" is an understatement.

In ATHK's particular situation, his post was also a duplicate of his other post (which is an even bigger problem in a forum like Classified Ads). And given how he wigged-out when someone merely tagged his post, I'm not surprised a moderator didn't take the time to edit in an English translation for him (you know: those abnormal, indecent, extra-terrestrial moderators).

Necroposts were more of an issue with the old forums, where people would inevitably bump a thread that would take up the entire front page. It's less of an issue now that they only take up 1 of ~50 slots on the page, but I have yet to see a necropost that actually continues the conversation. Most are just people trying to get a hold of the one of the posters (which probably stems from the post being displayed on the the user's page). Ultimately, it just creates clutter and confusion. I've gone and written answers to questions from people who have long since left because someone dug up a post from 2006, and that's just a waste of peoples' time. Also, not appeal to popularity here, but it's one of the most common rules on the internet (as is [main-language]-only on the primary forums).

As for the deletion of pointless comments, the only ones I see in the moderator log since the 13th (a weekend, mind you) were "sdwadaw", "Save", "lmfao", "Tetsuya sucks", and "lol" (the last couple were actually from the same person). I think you're blowing the problem out of proportion.

As for being helpful, you shouldn't see that in the moderator logs, as you yourself have pointed out. I spend a lot of my time answering questions.
Perhaps you shouldn't be moderating content of other people's discussions that don't concern you then. To me it feels like I'm having a discussion with someone in at a park then a random member of the public wearing a badge comes over and says they don't like what I'm talking about or the way I'm talking about it then puts sellotape over my mouth when I don't stop.

I think Byond is a prime example of overly invasive and misguided moderation. I understand there are children who use these forums and anything blatantly rude should be deleted but getting rid of content you don't like and punishing the writer for having beliefs is really oppressive and infact the greatest rudeness of them all.

I want to have freedom of speech here, the ability to say things that somebody might not like because that's how we weed out ignorance.

Come to think about it, not being able to say what we want is probably one of the reasons Byond has such a bad look.


If you don't like what I've said then get the #@!$ out of the thread or don't talk to me. Big woop, someone's feelings got hurtzy.
In response to Zecronious (#57)
Zecronious wrote:
I think Byond is a prime example of overly invasive and misguided moderation.

I do agree that there have been times where I thought: "Wow, that post should have not been deleted/edited." I personally would not edit a message unless that user used profanity or had no clue that dm tags existed. If people are being respectful, I say let the discussion stand.


I want to have freedom of speech here, the ability to say things that somebody might not like because that's how we weed out ignorance.

I believe that is a misguided belief that many people on the internet have. We do not have the freedom of speech. But if a comment is respectful, I will let it stay. But with that said, the moderators should have a discussion so that we all can get on the right track.


Come to think about it, not being able to say what we want is probably one of the reasons Byond has such a bad look.

No. It's due to the majority of us focusing on minute problems and not playing or making games.


If you don't like what I've said then get the #@!$ out of the thread or don't talk to me. Big woop, someone's feelings got hurtzy.

I feel that being respectful is important. Remember, not all forum moderation is equal: one party may allow profanity and trolling while another requires intelligent discussion. I can guarantee you, there are users on other forums who make the same complaints, be it great moderation being done or not. So it appears to be a lose-lose situation, but changes can be made.
In response to Calus CoRPS (#58)
You mentioned that changes can be made, Will they?

Is it even possible to get something like this done?

Are the moderators willing to do this?

Has Tom ever taken control of the moderators? I know there is an admin log but has Tom ever told them this is not right,you shouldn't of done that or hey I think we need some guidelines take this with you.

Seems like they need a moderator to moderate the moderators...

Or solve it all implement proper tools and have a guideline for moderators for public display.. oh and a more comprehensive posting guideline for users.

Realistically I could post warez on this site (if no mods were on) and have it sit there for awhile if I wasn't aware of the rule .. no warez then I would assume that its fine...

I could post in another language
I could post porn links / images
I could do practically do anything that isn't in my little guideline and feel that it was perfectly fine and obviously dispute it (like now) when it gets removed noting once again that my guideline doesn't say anything about it therefore it is fine..

A posting guideline could also be a moderators guideline obviously a posting guideline would note what is right and wrong correctly (unlike the present one) and a moderator could have something to fall back on..

"Sorry but the removal of that post was due to rule number 2 on the posting guidelines I would suggest reading them before posting on our forums - have a nice day"

It is so simple I don't understand why it is so hard for all of you to come to an agreement that it would make everything somewhat easier for you...

Of course you will have jackarses doing the usual stupid "Sfsdf" posts that can not be helped in any instance...
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