ID:132403
 
I just got power back on today, after almost 24 hours of sitting in a chilly house, during the middle of a blizzard.

When I logged onto the Byond website, I noticed that the "Show Fangames" button had been removed, and I could only see original games.


Is this a bug on the part of my browser (Opera) or intentional? I was under the assumption that fangames would at least be optionally represented, as original games are being featured at the moment.


Thanks in advance for the help.
Can't see it either, the hell?

Using Firefox 3.6.13
Archonex wrote:
Is this a bug on the part of my browser (Opera) or intentional? I was under the assumption that fangames would at least be optionally represented, as original games are being featured at the moment.

It is intentional. I will make a blog post on it and other things later today. You can still search for fangames and list them with either the 'fangame' or 'anime' tags in the right sidebox. So the same functionality is there.
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Archonex wrote:
Is this a bug on the part of my browser (Opera) or intentional? I was under the assumption that fangames would at least be optionally represented, as original games are being featured at the moment.

It is intentional. I will make a blog post on it and other things later today. You can still search for fangames and list them with either the 'fangame' or 'anime' tags in the right sidebox. So the same functionality is there.


That's awfully disappointing. Speaking as someone who handles the coding of one, it feels like people who design fangames are being excluded, now.

Forcing people to use the search engine to find a game makes it unlikely that new fan-games will be discovered on the scale of the existing, pre website change-over ones.


I do believe the show fangames button was an acceptable alternative, so long as it was toggled off by default. You could remove them from the hub/front page, that way.


Regardless, thanks for the clarification on this. I was about to install a new browser to see if it was another one of Opera's little web-site dependent quirks. Hopefully things will change in the future in regards to the front page.
In response to Archonex
Archonex wrote:
That's awfully disappointing. Speaking as someone who handles the coding of one, it feels like people who design fangames are being excluded, now.

I apologize, but we can't please everyone. The compromise was met with some opposition and internally, we felt it was clunky as well. At any rate, clicking on the "fangame" tag does effectively the same thing that the checkbox used to do.

We are trying to encourage development of original games. We will even allow for some leeway to introduce elements of fan influence (more on this in the post). If your game can be converted, then not only can it be listed for more exposure, but it can be featured too.
In response to Tom
The Fangame tag really doesn't cut it. It gives a humongous list of un-organised query results which is confusing to search through and filter.

I thought it was perfectly okay the way it was before, you could hide them on demand, and show them on demand. Too many "original game developers" are just too butthurt over this.

I agree original games should get featured and receive more help and whatnot, but don't let this go to silly lengths. You were already weeding out the rips from original fan-games, is this just a method because the work was too much, or just another slap in the face?
In response to Emasym
Emasym wrote:
The Fangame tag really doesn't cut it. It gives a humongous list of un-organised query results which is confusing to search through and filter.

But that's how it worked in the last iteration, with the checkbox. Fangames have (and always have had) one and only one tag-- either "fangame" or "anime". We did not ever support sub-tagging fangames with "arcade" etc.

If you want to see a list of all anime games sorted by #players, you can still do that. Clicking on the "anime" tag in the new setup and clicking on the checkbox in the old basically did the same thing.

I thought it was perfectly okay the way it was before, you could hide them on demand, and show them on demand. Too many "original game developers" are just too butthurt over this.

That may well be true, and I agree that there are some good fangames that I'd prefer had more visibility. But it's difficult to allow for that and have a consistent policy. The main purpose of this page is for new users to see that BYOND is about original games, and for new developers to work towards that goal so that we aren't just an Anime hotspot.
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Archonex wrote:
That's awfully disappointing. Speaking as someone who handles the coding of one, it feels like people who design fangames are being excluded, now.

At any rate, clicking on the "fangame" tag does effectively the same thing that the checkbox used to do.

I understand that.

It just seems extremely counter-intuitive to actually finding them.


Like I posted up above (I edited my message, as I didn't realize a new post had been made yet.), the odds of new, and even old players utilizing this method compared to more user friendly methods seems rather unlikely, as, at face value, it appears rather counter intuitive to finding a specific game, or genre of game that you would want to try.

There's also no indication aside from user logic that clicking a search term, amongst many search terms, will bring up an entirely new sub-set of games that are not listed. Especially amongst new users, who, in the current setting, may not even be aware that that sub-set even exists.

And I may be mis-understanding the mechanics of the search engine, but don't fan-games have to manually tag themselves with a new search parameter to show up? If so, it seems unlikely that all of the fan-games out there will realize this.


Speaking personally, I greatly support the creation of original works.

Heck, I originally wanted to work on an original game myself (And have a rather unique original creation in the works once I get to a safe stopping point on my current two projects.), but I can understand why a great deal of coders go towards the fan-games.

Original games just don't seem to get the attention that fan-games do, as they have no pre-existing fan-base to draw on. The only way around this is to go on a major advertising campaign, or get lucky in the way that Space Station 13 did (Mass advertising across websites like SA and Penny Arcade by enthusiastic players.).


Like I said. I can understand why you guys want to limit the number of fan-games on the hub. There's so many of them, that they can be a plague given the similarity between a good number of them.

However I wish there'd be a more user friendly way of going about it. Given some of the topics that have appeared lately, it seems that Byond is taking a bit of heat for the rapid change-over.


Anyways, thanks for the heads up.

If I might bother you one more time, how does one list themselves under the fan-game search? I don't even see my game up on there, and I don't see a way to list it under the hub options, though maybe i've missed something.
In response to Archonex
Archonex wrote:

And I may be mis-understanding the mechanics of the search engine, but don't fangames have to manually tag themselves with a new search parameter to show up? If so, it seems unlikely that all of the fangames out there will realize this.

Fangames are listed in the search. Search for "dbz" in the bar and you'll see what I mean.

Honestly, I don't think this is a problem for incoming users looking for fangames because those users most likely found out about BYOND through some fangame. What we want to do is make the original games visible because this is their only real means of advertising themselves.

Original games just don't seem to get the attention that fangames do, as they have no pre-existing fan-base to draw on.

Exactly, which is why we have to help them out instead of having them get drowned in the masses of fangames.


If I might bother you one more time, how does one list themselves under the fan-game search?

You don't have to do anything. You submit your game and we classify it. Once a game is accepted (fangame or not), it'll be accessible in the search.
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
The main purpose of this page is for new users to see that BYOND is about original games, and for new developers to work towards that goal so that we aren't just an Anime hotspot.

Isn't that where most of the money is coming from, though? I don't see all-original games getting to 200 players easily. People like fangames.

Case and point: Most "Movie To Game" Video Games are a complete waste of time. But they're still being made, because they still attract a lot of people.

I was so psyched to get my game out in the #Latest tab (for people interested in fan-games and thus with the button on, of course), and now this.

With this change, best thing you can do in my opinion is combine the "fangame" and "anime" tag. Or just revert to the page from a few hours ago which I saw no real complaints about.
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
If I might bother you one more time, how does one list themselves under the fan-game search?

You don't have to do anything. You submit your game and we classify it. Once a game is accepted (fangame or not), it'll be accessible in the search.


Alright. I'm assuming that fan-games are still being classified, then? Or is there another submission process that I need to go through?

I ask, because the game I code for was previously listed on the front page as a fan-game (Dragonball Phoenix), and is now not on either the search engine, or the front page. Checking the anime search term, it doesn't appear to show up there either.


I'm not too certain how Byond handles classifications under their current search engine, unfortunately. I spend most of my time nowadays with my nose in the code of the games I code for.
In response to Emasym
Emasym wrote:
Isn't that where most of the money is coming from, though? I don't see all-original games getting to 200 players easily. People like fangames.

Yes, we will take a financial hit for this. But hopefully we can change the culture here and bring in more developers trying to work on original creations.

I was so psyched to get my game out in the #Latest tab (for people interested in fan-games and thus with the button on, of course), and now this.

Honestly, the front-page doesn't have a huge effect on fangame traffic because, like I said earlier, most of those people are coming into fangames through outside links or through the existing fangame community here. In fact, most of our players don't use the website at all. They just sign on to the pager and go to their favorite game.
In response to Emasym
Emasym wrote:
I was so psyched to get my game out in the #Latest tab (for people interested in fan-games and thus with the button on, of course), and now this.

But the site still works exactly the same way. Anyone who wants to search for the latest fan games just needs to click the "fangames" tag.

Trust me, most fan game players on BYOND have blinders on that allow them to hone right in on their favorite type of fan game. Whether you're DBZ, Naruto or Final Fantasy, they won't have any problem finding you. I'd actually wager that their brains probably won't even allow them to see anything other than a glowing "Anime" and/or "Fangame" tag link on the right.
In response to SilkWizard
SilkWizard wrote:
I'd actually wager that their brains probably won't even allow them to see anything other than a glowing "Anime" and/or "Fangame" tag link on the right.

Condescending, much?
In response to Archonex
Archonex wrote:
Alright. I'm assuming that fan-games are still being classified, then? Or is there another submission process that I need to go through?

Nope, you don't have to do anything other than be a member and submit your game.

I ask, because the game I code for was previously listed on the front page as a fan-game (Dragonball Phoenix), and is now not on either the search engine, or the front page. Checking the anime search term, it doesn't appear to show up there either.

It is on the search engine: http://www.byond.com/games/?text=phoenix&sort=pop

as well as in the listings, under "anime": http://www.byond.com/ games/?&text=tag%3Aanime&sort=pop&page=2

It is on page #2 of the popular sort (which uses #fans who are BYOND members). If you use the player sort, it is right at the top of the first page.
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Archonex wrote:
Alright. I'm assuming that fan-games are still being classified, then? Or is there another submission process that I need to go through?

Nope, you don't have to do anything other than be a member and submit your game.

I ask, because the game I code for was previously listed on the front page as a fan-game (Dragonball Phoenix), and is now not on either the search engine, or the front page. Checking the anime search term, it doesn't appear to show up there either.

It is on the search engine: http://www.byond.com/games/?text=phoenix&sort=pop

as well as in the listings, under "anime": http://www.byond.com/ games/?&text=tag%3Aanime&sort=pop&page=2

It is on page #2 of the popular sort (which uses #fans who are BYOND members). If you use the player sort, it is right at the top of the first page.


Ah, I see it now. Thanks for the clarification and help.


I wasn't aware that the search engine used the popularity/population/date filters when searching for a specific term. I was also looking under the fangame section, since I assumed that's where all fan-games were being listed at. My mistake.
In response to Archonex
Im all for rips being removed(even though not all rips have been removed yet) but fan games being all together excluded is kinda jacked up considering "fan games" like GOA and BLN attracted most of byonds community, including me when i searched Naruto MMO bout 3 years ago and brought me to GOA
In response to Tom
Long story short, why is BYOND staff so adverse to anime games? The main reason 90% of people stay on BYOND is for the anime games, nothing will change that. The players have chosen what they want to play. Trying to force them to play other things will just "kill" BYOND.
In response to Dragonn
Possibly because BYOND is the butt of every anime game joke.

"Hey guys I just played nayrto galaktic combo land!!!11!!! fun gaem1!!"

"Lol, must be some generic BYOND rip or something"
In response to Dragonn
Dragonn wrote:
Long story short, why is BYOND staff so adverse to anime games? The main reason 90% of people stay on BYOND is for the anime games, nothing will change that. The players have chosen what they want to play. Trying to force them to play other things will just "kill" BYOND.

You guys are missing the point. No one is trying to force Anime kiddies to play original games. Frankly, I don't think that that could be accomplished even if someone was holding a gun to their heads.

Fan games have clogged up BYOND and drowned out original development. All that these site changes are doing is getting fan games out of the way so that original development can begin to flourish again on BYOND.

BYOND is already THE PLACE for DBZ and Naruto MORPGs on the internet... but that's not much of a business model. Worse, no real Anime or Fan Game developers even exist anymore. 99% of the games are rips, and 100% of them use the same gameplay style. The prominence of those games has been chasing away potential players and real developers for years now.

BYOND's future lies in nurturing quality original games, and in becoming known as a place where creativity thrives. At this point the only way for BYOND to start to bringing in new players and game developers is to show the best of what BYOND can do. This new site update does just that, by showcasing a much wider variety of the cool unique BYOND games.

There are a heck of a lot more people out there looking for fun original games to play then there are looking for a crappy Naruto rip to grind in.
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