BYOND RPG

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There's an audience outside of BYOND!

Hello RPG Game Creators!

I wanted to let you all in on a little secret... there is an audience for your games outside of BYOND!

While many of us love BYOND and all the tools it provides (especially the nifty hub), I'm sure some of us worry about our RPG games being drowned out by the Anime, or maybe just not getting enough players.

As has been said in the past, although BYOND offers you a great way to market the game (via the hub), it is certainly not the only way.

I recently made a post on the reddit.com /gaming/ sub-reddit, asking if people would be interested in a 2D RPG, and in not even 24 hours we've gotten quite a response. Many would be interested in playing it, some of then broad in their support, some more conditional (and a few even asking if they could actually help out with the art or programming!). "Is it free? Will it include modern gameplay?" I encourage all the developers to check out that post to get a little design ideas for your game, and to realize that the existing BYOND community is not the only community for your game. Enjoy!

Posted by Airjoe on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:24AM - 38 comments / Members say: yea +4, nay -2

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#38 Tiberath:  

Zaole wrote:
> Oh, and I should get Lummox to mention in that article that this is a handy site for making the optional .ico icon for the exe.

That site is okay, but I much prefer this one for that particular task.

And the difference is only one letter. =)

Thursday, May 28, 2009 08:27AM

#37 Magicbeast20:  

Wow they are obsessed with Chrono Trigger.

Thursday, May 28, 2009 06:01AM

#36 Vermolius:  

Foomer wrote:
> [...] and even a lot of games like Efencea that use XML files to let players customize game mechanics.

*tear*
Random mention. Woo!

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 04:08PM

#35 Zaole:  

Tom wrote:
> Zaole wrote:
> > Make this information highly accessible to the general crowd instead of hiding it away in the recesses of patch notes, or in forum threads that die off quickly!
>
> http://www.byond.com/developer/articles/publish
>
> The stuff on Make EXE is at the bottom.
>
> It's linked from the main DreamMakers page and various "start" pages as well.


That's what I call hidden, though. :P I went searching for it before I made that previous comment, and couldn't find it. I didn't think of checking the publish link since I already knew how to "publish" games. In addition, it's reaaaaaally far down on that page.

Oh, and I should get Lummox to mention in that article that this is a handy site for making the optional .ico icon for the exe.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 02:55PM
(Edited on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 03:05PM)

#34 Tom:  

Zaole wrote:
> Make this information highly accessible to the general crowd instead of hiding it away in the recesses of patch notes, or in forum threads that die off quickly!

http://www.byond.com/developer/articles/publish

The stuff on Make EXE is at the bottom.

It's linked from the main DreamMakers page and various "start" pages as well.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 02:43PM

#33 Zaole:  

Tom wrote:
> I think for most BYOND games, the EXE system works well, because you only have to distribute one thing (not even a zip) and the user doesn't have to worry about where the files reside etc. They just double-click and play. Even in your case, I think it'd be better if your app didn't require the user to interact with the desktop files-- better just have it import them at runtime through a file-selector box (although I don't know if that's feasible on your end). We never intended people to have to visit the actual game directory, which is why it is "hidden" there in MyHub.

Here's an example of communication hiccups- I, a game developer, have not heard of the EXE system until now. Sure, one could suppose that "if the developer isn't actively looking for this information in every nook and cranny then he's not actually interested in it", but that might not always be the case.

I think this EXE system sounds interesting and would make presenting BYOND games to others much easier. How does it work? How do I implement it? Make this information highly accessible to the general crowd instead of hiding it away in the recesses of patch notes, or in forum threads that die off quickly!

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 02:39PM

#32 Foomer:  

Tom wrote:
> I think it'd be better if your app didn't require the user to interact with the desktop files--

A LOT of immensely popular games have custom content directories. That may not be so much the case with online games, since all the player really needs for those is a client. But for typical download and play by yourself games, its extremely common to have customizable content that you can throw in through the file manager. Custom levels for games like Warcraft or Starcraft, Maps for Chip's Challenge, tracks and cars for racing games, custom events, ships and technologies in Galactic Civilizations, and even a lot of games like Efencea that use XML files to let players customize game mechanics.

Typically all a player needs to do to install these is download the zip (self extracting or otherwise), place it in the game's directory, and unzip it. The zip would place the files in the directories where they're needed. But for any games besides join-only games, there are a lot of reasons why people may want to fiddle around in the game's directory.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 01:33PM

#31 Tom:  

Well, your game is a special case since it is using external files like that, but I think we can sort it out. IIRC you made a post on this earlier so bump that up and we can put it on the List / discuss further.

I think for most BYOND games, the EXE system works well, because you only have to distribute one thing (not even a zip) and the user doesn't have to worry about where the files reside etc. They just double-click and play. Even in your case, I think it'd be better if your app didn't require the user to interact with the desktop files-- better just have it import them at runtime through a file-selector box (although I don't know if that's feasible on your end). We never intended people to have to visit the actual game directory, which is why it is "hidden" there in MyHub.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 01:20PM

#30 Foomer:  

Tom wrote:
> Well, I think if you use the "Make EXE" it should work more like a standard distribution. The BYOND download+install is pretty quick and seamless, pretty much like any standard dependency (like .NET), but much smaller.

Okay, I'm Joe Newbie and I just heard about this game that I want to play. Its called Tomb Explorer and I'm given a link to the zip file (outside of BYOND). I download the zip file and extract the game to C:\Tomb Explorer.

I run Tomb Explorer.exe expecting a game. Instead I get a message: "This program requires BYOND gaming engine. Click OK to download & install BYOND." Apparently I need some required files in order for this game to run, so I click OK and start downloading. OK, install, wait a minute...

Finally Tomb Explorer pops up. All is well and good, I just downloaded my game and now I'm playing it. Sweet. I like the game. The web site says I can download more maps for it, so I download "Turned Around" by Danny Roe and save the .MAP file to C:\Tomb Explorer\maps. I restart the game. WTF? Why didn't the new map show up?

I go to post on the forum, but realize that it requires registration and I don't care that much. I figure the game is bugged and I delete it and go do something else.

The real problem, of course, is that the moment I ran Tomb Explorer.exe, it downloaded Tomb Explorer from BYOND.com and installed it at C:\Documents and Settings\%User%\My Documents\BYOND\MyHub\foomer\tombexplorer. Its not actually using ANY of the information from C:\Tomb Explorer.

BYOND should be installing itself as required files. It should NOT be downloading the game from BYOND.com or accessing the downloaded version in MyHub when I run a BYOND game's EXE. It should identify and run the local DMB file for the game that the EXE was created for.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 01:06PM
(Edited on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 01:12PM)

#29 Tom:  

SilkWizard wrote:
> So, in other words; my success with advertising outside of BYOND was limited to a fangame, and hence all of the work was pretty much done for me. NEStalgia will be my first "real" attempt to advertise my work outside of BYOND.

That's a pretty good point. And I agree that the number of fans of "original" / non-Anime games has declined in the last few years, despite our general / Anime audience ballooning over that time. It is an avalanche effect since we've become such an Anime hub and I can only imagine that the presence of so many of those games is driving away our other users. We've attempted to make some changes to the main site to emphasize non-Anime games and things recommended based on your viewing history (we'll need better defaults for new users). I hope that by improving this over time we can show that BYOND is, in fact, not only an Anime hub.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:36PM

#28 Tom:  

Foomer wrote:
> BYOND works differently than a standard program with dependencies though. Normal programs you download the program, maybe install it somewhere (or just unpackage it), then run the EXE file. With BYOND, you're actually playing games through Dream Seeker like a browser, and its weird if you're expecting a standard EXE game.

Well, I think if you use the "Make EXE" it should work more like a standard distribution. The BYOND download+install is pretty quick and seamless, pretty much like any standard dependency (like .NET), but much smaller. I don't think many people have tried this, though. It occurs to me that we should have a way of autogenerating this kind of installer for hub entries when the user doesn't have BYOND installed. That might get more hits.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:33PM

#27 Bootyboy:  

Excellent post, Airjoe

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:33PM

#26 Foomer:  

@Zaole: I don't think any of this really applied to you. No one is playing the blame game here, its just that if developers want to make games that people outside of BYOND will be interested in, they need to raise their standards past what BYOND's current standards are. If you're not concerned about who plays your game and you're only building for fun, then it really doesn't apply to you.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:30PM

#25 Airjoe:  

Foomer wrote:
> BYOND works differently than a standard program with dependencies though. Normal programs you download the program, maybe install it somewhere (or just unpackage it), then run the EXE file. With BYOND, you're actually playing games through Dream Seeker like a browser, and its weird if you're expecting a standard EXE game.

You don't have to use BYOND for the whole process, though. Use BYOND to do your "make exe", and then use your own installer (there are free alternatives to InstallShield) to install the actual game. It can basically silently install BYOND, put your game directory wherever you want it, set up desktop and start menu shortcuts, etc. Like I said, set up the game to run in Guest mode, and suddenly BYOND is invisible and your game looks legit.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:30PM

#24 Ss4toby:  

HOTTT DOG! Wooo... That's a mighty fine post.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:27PM

#23 Foomer:  

Airjoe wrote:
> And why is that? When you program in C# and tell someone they need to install the .NET framework, do you go into detail or just explain it's a package dependency? What about the Java Runtime Environment? GTK+? People understand that programs have requirements.

BYOND works differently than a standard program with dependencies though. Normal programs you download the program, maybe install it somewhere (or just unpackage it), then run the EXE file. With BYOND, you're actually playing games through Dream Seeker like a browser, and its weird if you're expecting a standard EXE game.

Has anyone ever tried Big Fish Games before? I tried it the other day and found the whole thing exceedingly awkward, even though it plays out rather like BYOND. You download games through the web site, it installs the main program (like BYOND), then you can either run them through the main program (like the Pager), or you can run the BFG files (like DMBs).

Frankly, I hated it and deleted the whole setup, free games and all. Would much rather just install regular executable games.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:25PM

#22 Zaole:  

I'm tired of hearing that "it's not BYOND's fault, it's the developers' fault for not making good games!" Guess what else? Grass is green, the sky is blue... We know.

Screaming this into the ears of developers will not make good games pop out. If you're adamant upon the concept of bringing more people into BYOND, you should take it upon yourself to do so instead of pushing others to do it for you and attempting to lay all the blame on people other than yourself.

I have not advertised outside of BYOND. Why should I? I'm content with the community as it is. To receive money for people who join through my links and become Members, you say? If I were, for example, to advertise to a group of 300, I'd guess about 15 people would actually check out BYOND. 12 of those would leave and never come back, and the other 3 would just play Naruto/DBZ rips and never become a member.

In addition, I don't feel motivated to advertise my own games because not only are they not good enough, but I don't make games on BYOND to draw crowds and make cash-- I do it as a pastime.

(mind you, none of this is directed at Airjoe since he is in fact developing a game)

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:18PM

#21 SilkWizard:  

Tom wrote:
> Silk, have you managed to bring outside users into your games, or were they members of the community beforehand? If so, what advertising tactics did you use?

This is a good question; I'll try to summarize the answer as best is possible:

Dragon Warrior Online was a fun game, but you couldn't call the original releases "good" by any sort of normal standard. So, like today's wave of Anime games, I was able to go advertise at pre-existing fan sites for the Dragon Warrior series and find players regardless of the merits of my game. It didn't take much to get featured on the front page of Dragon Warrior sites, have articles written up about the game, and to have hordes of players being sent my way.

This is the root of any BYOND fan game's success; a pre-existing audience that is hungry for anything, even if it's spending an hour hitting "pbags" to level up. Take the "Naruto" or "DBZ" out of BYOND's Anime games and no one would play them.

I never advertised Proelium, but I think that the large player base I had built for DWO took care of that for me. When I released Proelium II this past winter I found out the hard way that the number of players looking for original games on BYOND has actually decreased significantly since 2002.

NEStalgia will be a good test case, because I built it from the ground up to appeal to an outside audience, and I'm planning on launching a big advertising campaign outside of BYOND. This will mean sending press releases to independent gaming websites, and using my contacts at other sites (like gametrailers.com) to get an article or two featured. I guess we'll see how it works out...

So, in other words; my success with advertising outside of BYOND was limited to a fangame, and hence all of the work was pretty much done for me. NEStalgia will be my first "real" attempt to advertise my work outside of BYOND.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:44AM

#20 Airjoe:  

Fugsnarf wrote:
> My point is that the majority won't want to unless you tell them more about BYOND first...

And why is that? When you program in C# and tell someone they need to install the .NET framework, do you go into detail or just explain it's a package dependency? What about the Java Runtime Environment? GTK+? People understand that programs have requirements.

Step 1: link to game's hub page
Step 2: User clicks download

Done.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:33AM

#19 Fugsnarf:  

Your point is that there are people out there wishing to play our games. My point is that the majority won't want to unless you tell them more about BYOND first, or do as you were saying and package a few games for them.

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:31AM