What n00bs (read: I) really want: in BYOND Discussion

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ID:137843
 
Jul 6 2001, 6:23 am
What would be great is if one of you pro DM programmers could release the source of one of your games. But not just a smalle one like the one already out (forgot name) but an actual full game. Say one of your older projects. It would really help, as a problem I oftern seem to have is: I can write the code needed and it'll work...sort of, but I then have trouble integrating it with the rest of my code.

Eg/ I made a battle system. I got item overlays working. But now I'm struggling with getting the items to change your stats when equiped, and still actually appear on you.

Just an idea. =)
#1 Jul 6 2001, 6:30 am
On 7/6/01 7:23 am Botman wrote:
What would be great is if one of you pro DM programmers could release the source of one of your games. But not just a smalle one like the one already out (forgot name) but an actual full game. Say one of your older projects. It would really help, as a problem I oftern seem to have is: I can write the code needed and it'll work...sort of, but I then have trouble integrating it with the rest of my code.

Eg/ I made a battle system. I got item overlays working. But now I'm struggling with getting the items to change your stats when equiped, and still actually appear on you.

Just an idea. =)

You've just stumbled across the awful, terrible truth about BYOND--there just aren't that many full, completely finished games out there EXCEPT the small ones that are usually open-sourced.
#2 Jul 6 2001, 6:42 am
On 7/6/01 7:23 am Botman wrote:
What would be great is if one of you pro DM programmers could release the source of one of your games. But not just a smalle one like the one already out (forgot name) but an actual full game. Say one of your older projects. It would really help, as a problem I oftern seem to have is: I can write the code needed and it'll work...sort of, but I then have trouble integrating it with the rest of my code.

Eg/ I made a battle system. I got item overlays working. But now I'm struggling with getting the items to change your stats when equiped, and still actually appear on you.

Just an idea. =)

And why exactly do you think there are so many DBZ clones out there now? As I understand it (purely hearsay) Ebonshadow leaked some of his early DBZ Spar code and suddenly there are dozens of DBZ games that are all the same.
#3 Jul 6 2001, 7:46 am
On 7/6/01 7:23 am Botman wrote:
What would be great is if one of you pro DM programmers could release the source of one of your games. But not just a smalle one like the one already out (forgot name) but an actual full game. Say one of your older projects. It would really help, as a problem I oftern seem to have is: I can write the code needed and it'll work...sort of, but I then have trouble integrating it with the rest of my code.

To be honest I don't think it would help much. 99.9% of people would just take the code and release it as their game, without understanding it. If people can copy and paste (or even better, just hit Build->Compile) they will do so, then the person who provided the source code is forever stuck with: "I'm using your game code but it doesn't work. Fix it."

This I know from experience.

Nonetheless, once I've solved some problem a couple of times in what seems to be a clean fashion, I tend to release it as a library to try and help people out. And let me tell you, even releasing a library where the game designer has to do nothing but include it and copy and paste a bit of code you've provided still results in lots and lots of "This doesn't work (you know, after I ignored your example code and mucked with the core library). Fix it."
#4 Jul 6 2001, 8:05 am
In response to Deadron (#3)
(This is Re:Deadron's post.

Hmm... good point about the stealing, and copy pasting. The thing is, it's much easier to understand something when you see it working. For example: I started out learning HTML by copy/pasting things (not entire websites or anything), but as I used it more and more, I began to learn what everything did, and more importantly, how to use it. Now I'm a (self proclaimed) good :) webmaster of several sites.

Some people will just steal your code, but if they want to learn anything, it's their loss. If they do just modify the game slightly it'll show, and I'm sure if they are the sort of programmer who resorts to doing this, they certainly won't have the skill to actually improve the game and make people want to play it more than the origional.
#5 Jul 6 2001, 8:20 am
I can write the code needed and it'll work...sort of, but I then have trouble integrating it with the rest of my code.

I can sympathize with you here... but just about the only cure for it is experience. One thing that has worked for many of us BYOND coders is to start small. Before you tackle the RPG of your dreams, write one or two "party games" with a limited scope; that will allow you to settle in and get a feel for the language.

Best of all, consider writing a Classic game--you know, an electronic version of some old card/board/pen-and-paper game everyone knows and loves. This is about the closest thing to a true "initiation" for BYOND programmers. :)
#6 Jul 6 2001, 8:22 am
In response to Gughunter (#5)
On 7/6/01 9:20 am Gughunter wrote:
I can write the code needed and it'll work...sort of, but I then have trouble integrating it with the rest of my code.

I can sympathize with you here... but just about the only cure for it is experience. One thing that has worked for many of us BYOND coders is to start small. Before you tackle the RPG of your dreams, write one or two "party games" with a limited scope; that will allow you to settle in and get a feel for the language.

Best of all, consider writing a Classic game--you know, an electronic version of some old card/board/pen-and-paper game everyone knows and loves. This is about the closest thing to a true "initiation" for BYOND programmers. :)

Another thing you could try is learning another programming language if you don't already know one. True, this sounds like extra work, but you'll have the opportunity to examine LOTS of sample code, and you'll be learning all the while.
#7 Jul 6 2001, 8:30 am
In response to Botman (#4)
On 7/6/01 9:05 am Botman wrote:
Some people will just steal your code, but if they want to learn anything, it's their loss.

I'm not worried about stealing at all. If someone makes their game code available, obviously they want it to be used.

I'm worried about having to support every new person who is creating a game, hasn't bothered to learn anything, and wants you to fix whatever they broke in the sample because you wrote it.
#8 Jul 6 2001, 8:51 am
In response to Deadron (#7)
On 7/6/01 9:30 am Deadron wrote:
On 7/6/01 9:05 am Botman wrote:
Some people will just steal your code, but if they want to learn anything, it's their loss.

I'm not worried about stealing at all. If someone makes their game code available, obviously they want it to be used.

I'm worried about having to support every new person who is creating a game, hasn't bothered to learn anything, and wants you to fix whatever they broke in the sample because you wrote it.

Maybe you should release libraries under an alias key :) You could reply to help requests as a 'helpfull outside observer', but not inherit the status of owner.

This started as a joke, but might not be bad if you don't mind not getting credit.
#9 Jul 6 2001, 8:57 am
In response to Flick (#8)
On 7/6/01 9:51 am Flick wrote:
I'm worried about having to support every new person who is creating a game, hasn't bothered to learn anything, and wants you to fix whatever they broke in the sample because you wrote it.

Maybe you should release libraries under an alias key :) You could reply to help requests as a 'helpfull outside observer', but not inherit the status of owner.

This started as a joke, but might not be bad if you don't mind not getting credit.

Well for me the answer is trying to accept responsibility for what I provide by creating libraries that don't require people to understand anything. If it's a library I use myself, I don't mind just trying to solve people's problems for them, and needing to keep the library working. That improves my code and helps other people.

However, I am refraining from releasing some of my more useful libraries to any but a select few who need them and who understand how to program. That's because those libraries require an understanding of DM and of the library itself to be used correctly, and I don't want to spend the rest of my life being responsible for people who are trying to use them without bothering to learn about them.
#10 Jul 6 2001, 9:35 am
In response to Deadron (#9)
However, I am refraining from releasing some of my more useful libraries to any but a select few who need them and who understand how to program. That's because those libraries require an understanding of DM and of the library itself to be used correctly, and I don't want to spend the rest of my life being responsible for people who are trying to use them without bothering to learn about them.

I know how to program! What kind of libraries? ;-)
#11 Jul 6 2001, 10:16 am
In response to Spuzzum (#10)
On 7/6/01 10:35 am Spuzzum wrote:
I know how to program! What kind of libraries? ;-)

For RPG and action-oriented games. Basically the full version of BaseCamp, which handles mob and NPC movement and a few other features.

The big win will be when it handles spawning -- I have a nice spawning library, but have to keep working on integrating more, since right now it requires you to do more than I'd like.

The library is based on the L&D code, and now L&D is being re-written to use it.

If you think you might find it useful, ping me.
#12 Jul 6 2001, 10:30 am
On 7/6/01 7:23 am Botman wrote:
What would be great is if one of you pro DM programmers could release the source of one of your games. But not just a smalle one like the one already out (forgot name) but an actual full game. Say one of your older projects.

The problem is that my older projects are coded so horribly, I'd shoot myself if anyone used them as an example. :)

Z
#13 Jul 6 2001, 10:37 am
In response to Deadron (#9)
On 7/6/01 9:57 am Deadron wrote:
However, I am refraining from releasing some of my more useful libraries to any but a select few who need them and who understand how to program.

After seeing your experiences with the libraries you have released, I've been seriously considering doing this with my parser. Just because you guys convinced me to make it a public library doesn't mean my tight-fisted tendencies have gotten any better...

Z
#14 Jul 6 2001, 10:48 am
In response to Zilal (#13)
On 7/6/01 11:37 am Zilal wrote:
On 7/6/01 9:57 am Deadron wrote:
However, I am refraining from releasing some of my more useful libraries to any but a select few who need them and who understand how to program.

After seeing your experiences with the libraries you have released, I've been seriously considering doing this with my parser. Just because you guys convinced me to make it a public library doesn't mean my tight-fisted tendencies have gotten any better...

You can always make it semi-private; that is, only send it to people who you think will be able to understand, and include a Non-Disclosure Agreement (basically, just say "You can't distribute it and you have to agree to that for me to send this to you, or else I'll get a lawyer and have him beat you up").
#15 Jul 6 2001, 10:49 am
In response to Zilal (#13)
On 7/6/01 11:37 am Zilal wrote:
On 7/6/01 9:57 am Deadron wrote:
However, I am refraining from releasing some of my more useful libraries to any but a select few who need them and who understand how to program.

After seeing your experiences with the libraries you have released, I've been seriously considering doing this with my parser.

If you have a library that is pretty much plug-and-play, it's probably okay. I've recently realized that about 75% of problems I get are related to people grabbing earlier sample code rather than the latest library. The early sample code required a bit more work on their part, which results in disaster.

So I guess the other lesson is: Be careful putting something that isn't plug-and-play out there! Once released, it will never go away!
#16 Jul 6 2001, 10:57 am
In response to Spuzzum (#14)
On 7/6/01 11:48 am Spuzzum wrote:
You can always make it semi-private; that is, only send it to people who you think will be able to understand, and include a Non-Disclosure Agreement (basically, just say "You can't distribute it and you have to agree to that for me to send this to you, or else I'll get a lawyer and have him beat you up").

I believe the next version of the hub will support making things available only to those you choose.
#17 Jul 6 2001, 12:05 pm
In response to Deadron (#9)
However, I am refraining from releasing some of my more useful libraries to any but a select few who need them and who understand how to program. That's because those libraries require an understanding of DM and of the library itself to be used correctly, and I don't want to spend the rest of my life being responsible for people who are trying to use them without bothering to learn about them.

That reminds me, Ron... I decided your BaseCamp libraries would run better if I switched around all the i's and e's... but when I hit replace all, it switched all the i's to e's, so now I don't know which e's were originally e's to make them i's. If you turn on your pager, I'll send the code to you and you can fix it to me.
#18 Jul 6 2001, 1:03 pm
In response to LexyBitch (#17)
On 7/6/01 1:05 pm LexyBitch wrote:
That reminds me, Ron... I decided your BaseCamp libraries would run better if I switched around all the i's and e's... but when I hit replace all, it switched all the i's to e's, so now I don't know which e's were originally e's to make them i's. If you turn on your pager, I'll send the code to you and you can fix it to me.

That's a better report than I usually get!
#19 Jul 8 2001, 1:42 am
i havent read the replys, but i think its safe for me to make my decision on this one,

all i have to say it that a lot of people prolly would not give out the code. but i could be wrong, like i said, i didnt read the replys. i know that i would not give out my code to anyone i didnt want to see it. magic battle's source code got out to people, not becuase of my fault, but becuase of a hacker which ripped it out my computer (you are all tired of hearing me say it, i know, just give me some time, i MIGHT forget about it someday).

anyways, if you want to be good in byond, and you want to make a great game, you need to figure out how to do it your self, and come up with your own ideas. use your creative mind that you have, if you have one that is.

do you think that the makers of UO went around asking the makers of DIABLO for tips on a battle system? i think not.

later,
FIREking
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