DYS' Site - Oh BYOND

#51 AmonR:

I blame our public schools.

Friday, July 10, 2009 03:22PM

I just found a relevant quote from a game (namely DragonBall Pee) which Grei made back in '03: "A FUN FACT: A lot of developers overlook BYOND because of the poorly written, often reused, junk dragonball games that present an image of the BYOND community which is far from the truth."

all you have to do is replace "dragonball" with "naruto" (although there are still more than enough junky dragonball rips)

Thursday, July 09, 2009 03:03PM

#49 DYS:

Maggeh wrote:
> edit: Well no, the best way to deal with the problem is we, as a community, moderate ourselves. It seems like Tom is slowly moving the site in that direction too with the guilds and now the rip reporting. We could force these people out of the search results, and the public eye. Maybe they'll wise up and try to make something themselves (which is ideally what we want), or they'll leave byond crying because they can't get any benefit out of their stolen game.

The sad part is this site and community has the potential to be so much more then it really is, but day by day it just seems to get worse instead of better. You're right about us "moderating ourselves" though, we should all try to do that (even if only a handful of us do, it's what we should strive for; the all part.).

We, BYOND, shouldn't be viewed as a community that relies on ripped content or disrespectful and meaningless arguing (which alot of us should be above). I can only hope [hope] this post and the comments that followed from everyone changes some views on others. That's all we can do when it comes down to it, hope.

Thursday, July 09, 2009 04:43AM

#48 Jp:

The "solution" to a problem I've never noticed is just to write good games with good art that's entirely legal.

Duh.

Thursday, July 09, 2009 01:14AM

#47 Maggeh:

Zaole wrote:
> Here's what I still don't get: why would they be so upset if their artwork is stolen?
>
> - it's a possibility which every pixel artist will always have to face no matter where you go or what you do
>
> - it's very easy to prove that you're the original creator
>
> - when others take your work and try to put it into their own game, it's not feasible to steal ALL of your artwork (for several reasons), so it looks poor and mismatched-- they gain nothing from stealing your artwork
>
> - if anything, it's flattery that they like your artwork so much that they'd like to use it themselves (regardless of their immature methods)
>
> I don't see how they get negatively impacted by such "theft" other than a sore butt.
>
> by the way, Tayoko's a wonderful artist and has created art inside of BYOND. I don't see his icons sprouting up in Naruto games or poor quality mockups of the game it exists in. reasons being? is it just maybe possible that the whole "THEY STEAL MY ARTWORK" accusations are way blown out of proportion, and it doesn't happen nearly as often as suggested?

1. Yes, I think all people realize this. The problem with BYOND is it seems it become acceptable and okay to do so. Art Theft (Well, theft in general the root cause of all of this) is pretty prevalent around BYOND.

2. Yes, I agree.

3. This is bull. It's incredibly easy to steal ALL of a game's graphics thanks to the .rsc extractor with just one click.

4. Perhaps in some cases. No so much in others.

5. Tayoko is a bad example. He hasn't posted that much actual game art, and Enfecta as far as it's icon use goes is pretty niche, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone used one of his aliens or something for a monster in a game. If you really want to see were art theft shines on this site, it's mostly stuff like general turfs such as trees, grass, rocks, and base icons, and then anime stuff always get's stolen.

The problem isn't with art theft (it's just most prevalent), it's just the whole general population of BYOND. They're all younger kids who would rather take than make, and regretfully it's incredibly easy to steal art on byond. This isn't so much the case with programming because currently as it stands these people can't get the code unless you actually choose to give it out.

There isn't any really good way to deal with this problem. It sucks too because of how tarnished BYOND's image is from it. No one respectable would want to come here if all it looks like is a bunch of thieves leeching off of everything, which is well what BYOND currently looks like. Just ask any community that actually knows about BYOND, and you'll find the same response.

edit: Well no, the best way to deal with the problem is we, as a community, moderate ourselves. It seems like Tom is slowly moving the site in that direction too with the guilds and now the rip reporting. We could force these people out of the search results, and the public eye. Maybe they'll wise up and try to make something themselves (which is ideally what we want), or they'll leave byond crying because they can't get any benefit out of their stolen game.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:43PM
(Edited on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 11:00PM)

#46 DJ Ghost Trane:

Since I never post I'm sure only a small number of people will recognize the name. This post being a small essay doesn't help either. But I was theorizing with DYS about a potential method to at least recognize art theft. A major con in the plan though is that it would require some work from the BYOND staff to implement.

Releasing finalized game art as a icon pack library. I'm sure some people won't be fond of making their intellectual property public, but what if there was an option to make the file private and only viewable by the byond staff and the original owner.

The basic idea is, once your game is ready for version 1.0 you release your icon work as one library like "(Insert Game Name Here) by: (Insert Owner Here)" then declare whether it's a public or private resource.

From there if your files popped up somewhere else, then you have a obvious reference ID'ing the work as yours. You also have a obvious reference to report the people stealing your work if you chose to make the library private. When reporting someone, a screenshot of the game using rips and a link to the library would be more than enough proof.

The difficulty in implementing this would be getting to byond staff to update the site allowing for private libraries. Absolute prevention is impractical if not impossible, but an established system to identify those who do steal is certainly feasible.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 09:33PM

#45 TheMonkeyDidIt:

MM: You misunderstand me. I should've clarified that point.

When I say mesh with outside languages and tech - I mean it doesn't entirely play well with other programming languages (domain specific or not) and that it doesn't allow the programmer to integrate software that's already out there - not that it isn't a good platform for learning other languages, syntactically similar, or even a good language itself.

Don't get me wrong, it's coming along in that direction with mySQL manipulation and DLL support (and javascript and HTML have always been there - even if in IE5) - but it could be better. Python integrates well with C++ as does Lua saving the machine state between calls. PHP and JS go hand and hand with both having native XML support. Etc.

I simply meant to say that programmers from BYOND and outside programming communities might not have much reason to talk or much common ground to interact on.

DM itself is a fine language.

That's enough out of me, tho. I said what I had on my mind.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 09:08PM

#44 The Magic Man:

TheMonkeyDidIt wrote:

> BYOND is pretty isolated. The programming doesn't really mesh with outside langs and tech

I'd just like to say, this is actually inaccurate.
Python is actually a very similar language to BYOND. It is object-oriented, uses a very similar syntax and formatting, and a lot of things in it have similar counterparts in BYOND (BYOND has atoms, Python has classes and so on).
Obviously, there is still a lot of differences (and Python has like 5000x more functions than BYOND), but it took me about a week to pick up and competantly use Python with no previous experience. (Also, Python is much, much harder to use to make a game, since you literally start with nothing but very basic features needed such a sprite, colllision and sound manipulatin and have to make everything yourself).

If you are at least competant at using BYOND, you could probably pick up and learn to use Python within a month at max, probably a lot less time.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 07:35PM

#43 TheMonkeyDidIt:

DYS wrote:
> The only solution to it would be to be overly oppressive to the members of this site, which wouldn't work as far as I can tell.

You're right. Going fascist on the situation is just going to drive everyone away eventually and, as Zaole and Chris pointed out, it's too much content to even begin play cops.

IMO (and I could be totally wrong): to some extent the overall bad rep has less to do with negative things like theft or flames (I think these things are an internet thing and not just a BYOND thing - like some here have said) and more to do with the lack of positive things.

BYOND is pretty isolated. The programming doesn't really mesh with outside langs and tech, our artists don't spend a whole lot of time in joint or -ation, our sound and writing guilds see less action than nun with scabies, etc. I think if more people did what AC tries to do and engage other communities to show them that not everyone here is a tool, we'd go a long way to helping the community's image.

Of course, that would mean more people would hafta have the balls/ovaries to stand up and say they're from BYOND (and not just make a single post saying: 'hai gaiz! try byond! its the neatestest...' and then leave). Nothing to eSneeze about.

Making great games (or really finishing any games - not that I should talk) would help, too.

> Though nothing can really be achieved, as of yet anyways, sheding some light on it would [hopefully] change the way to some people (though that'd most likely never happen).

Oh, yeah - I agree. Talking about it isn't bad at all (as a matter of fact - we should be talking more about how the 'outside world' views us - and engaging that world.) At some point, tho, someone - without knowing it - will make the last post in this thread and either people will do something about it or they won't.

But, no - I'm glad you brought it up!

> Sheesh even as I post people are already trying to ignite a flame war in this very post, it's ridiculous.

Sorry if I had anything to do with that.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 07:24PM

#42 Devourer Of Souls:

The problem is blown way out of proportion. It is a problem almost solely limited to anime based games, and most of the time it's their own damn fault.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 07:08PM

#41 Zaole:

having the BYOND staff monitor and ban art theft would be even more troublesome than removing rips simply because they would have to be extremely careful and sure of the theft before they do something as severe as banning, and if art theft is as widespread as you all claim then they'd never get anywhere with it

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:52PM

#40 Chris-g1:

Why, what would you do if you were in there position to fix the problem? Moderate 6000+ games and see if they have any art from around the web? its kind of a progressing problem, The more games, the larger chance of ripping(which is a no brainier)

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:52PM

#39 Aixelsyd:

I'm pretty sure the site having a bad image due to ripping is just as regressive (or maybe a bit less) to BYOND as not working on the software/website. Oh well, it's Tom and the BYOND staff's choice.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:47PM

#38 Danny Roe:

DYS wrote:
> that's why we stick to communities such as Pixel Joint and a few well known others among us.

Granted, artists at PixelJoint get a lot more C&C than a lot of places will give, however it is one of the biggest websites used to steal individual (i.e. not sprite sheets) pieces of art. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean that people aren't using your artwork, Byond just seems to have their 'rippers' publicised more.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:44PM

#37 Jeff8500:

Aixelsyd wrote:
> I've always wondered, in every other community, stealing other people's work is pretty much bannable. Why isn't that the case here? Is it really all about money?

If it was ban-able here, then a good portion of BYOND would be lost. From there, Lummox would have to quit as full time programmer because BYOND wouldn't be able to generate enough money to pay him.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:35PM

#36 Chris-g1:

Aixelsyd wrote:
> I've always wondered, in every other community, stealing other people's work is pretty much bannable. Why isn't that the case here? Is it really all about money?

In the case of BYOND Anime, then yes its all about the money. BYOND Art forums do ban people for stealing art then claiming it for there own.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:35PM

#35 Aixelsyd:

I've always wondered, in every other community, stealing other people's work is pretty much bannable. Why isn't that the case here? Is it really all about money?

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:33PM

#34 DYS:

You bring up some good points Zaole and I understand where you're coming from. We shouldn't just kick and scream while shouting "you just don't understand!", we should be giving reasons why right?

See as an artist you spend hours, maybe days if it's a big piece, on something you're working on. This entire process is done by pixel pushing, pixel by pixel having the artist being as creative as possible with what he/she is attempting to do. So you finish hours later and post it up on a site, let's say Pixel Joint, and of course there are people praising it or not but giving criticism none the less. All to help you, the artist improve in your own abilities.

[You're posting it in order to get feedback so that you yourself can improve.]

But here comes someone out of nowhere, no artistic ability and simply wishes to become more "popular" in there community. They take your art and start to put it in there game/tell others they made it. Something they clicked "save image as" in under 10 seconds and claimed it was theres when you've spent hours upon hours completing it.

As an artist we all know the dangers of posting our work online and it being taken, that's why we stick to communities such as Pixel Joint and a few well known others among us. Not even venturing outside of those forums unless a company posts a request for an artist. But the people that come on our only places of solitude and take our work, such disrespect is shown. Because no one wants there work stolen or used without there permission.

I'm not sure how a programmer would feel but I'd think they would have pretty much the same feelings or so. Unless it was a free resource of course.

----------

And I'm not condemning the whole community because of it, not in anyway because there are a handful of good people on this site that I've personally. But as majority rules in favor of the negativity that is shown to other communities whether it be Pixel Joint or wherever Magic Man is going to talk about BYOND.

[If it's not the ripped pixel art or disgruntled programmers, it's definitely the maturity and actions most of the members of this site do] and that's what condemns this entire community

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:11PM
(Edited on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 06:18PM)

#33 Zaole:

Pmitch wrote:
> Because we dont like other people claiming our stuff. its as simple as that. We dont spend hours drawing something for some kid to come and steal it, spread it and say he did it.
>
> You dont have to get it, but dont act like its no big deal to have your work stolen.
>
> And yeah, people certainly DO steal peoples entire portfolios if they can. What do you think they use the rsc extractors for?
>
> What i dont get is, why is it you think we should just say nothing,or not care, or not be upset when this kind of thing happens, just because its a possibility?
>
> Theres plenty of other reasons for why artists dont like their art being stolen. If you cant understand any of that, just be happy that you dont have to worry about people stealing and claiming your code as easily as they can steal our art.

I'd release all my code to the public if I wasn't worried about the awful habits it'd cause.

At any rate, you can kick and scream and say "you just don't understand!" like a teenager all you want, but it doesn't change the logistics of it: no matter what site you're on, if you create and display pixel work, it can be stolen. I'm not saying you can't be upset and call the thief a douche, but don't act surprised or condemn an entire community because of it.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 05:51PM

#32 Pmitch:

Zaole wrote:
> Here's what I still don't get: why would they be so upset if their artwork is stolen?
>
> - it's a possibility which every pixel artist will always have to face no matter where you go or what you do
>
> - it's very easy to prove that you're the original creator
>
> - when others take your work and try to put it into their own game, it's not feasible to steal ALL of your artwork (for several reasons), so it looks poor and mismatched-- they gain nothing from stealing your artwork
>
> - if anything, it's flattery that they like your artwork so much that they'd like to use it themselves (regardless of their immature methods)
>
> I don't see how they get negatively impacted by such "theft" other than a sore butt.

Because we dont like other people claiming our stuff. its as simple as that. We dont spend hours drawing something for some kid to come and steal it, spread it and say he did it.

You dont have to get it, but dont act like its no big deal to have your work stolen.

And yeah, people certainly DO steal peoples entire portfolios if they can. What do you think they use the rsc extractors for?

What i dont get is, why is it you think we should just say nothing,or not care, or not be upset when this kind of thing happens, just because its a possibility?

Theres plenty of other reasons for why artists dont like their art being stolen. If you cant understand any of that, just be happy that you dont have to worry about people stealing and claiming your code as easily as they can steal our art.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009 05:42PM

Oh BYOND