Keep an open mind or dont post (please) in Off Topic

ID:190370
 
Jan 31 2003, 12:39 pm
I just had an argument with my brother on a few taboo lifestyles on why they are taboo and what relevance they have in our society today. Like.. are they really wrong, or are we just closed minded and following the general crowd?

3 Topics.

Incest
and
Homosexuality

Now, these two things arent related but at one time societies all across the world (save a few) were under the impression that both these things were entirely evil.

Now that our societies are waking up from the hatred and ignorance and general foolishness based on these subjects why do other topics stay behind being hated?

Incest, its definately a repulsive subject, but I dont think that should mean it shouldnt be discussed. Its a serious topic and should be covered seriously.

Now Ive tried to argue that Incest is disgusting, but the hatred and anger held towards it is fabricated through half truths and whole lies.

Now, Im not certain that mutations can occur through incest, I believe this to be a whole lie or a half truth based on coincidence.. Anyone have links to studies proving or disproving this? This is the strongest argument against Incest and the only one that holds weight.

#1 Jan 31 2003, 1:49 pm
"These fears are valid: reduced fertility, shortened life expectancy, increased susceptibility to disease, and puny stature all occur in in-bred animals." -- Daily Nation

Too much to list -- Mechanisms Against Incest

Infact, the biological deteriorative effects of Incest appear on a Stanford medical exam. Of course you can also go read the other 200+ sites providing valid scientific proof that Incest is not a healthy thing, to say the least. Apparently the off-spring produced has less and less genes to work from, causing inability to cope with the environment, and a hoarde of other side effects. I don't know too much of it, but there's a wealth of sites on it.
#2 Jan 31 2003, 2:43 pm
The reason these things are so taboo and frowned upon by society is because they hinder the number 1 goal of all life forms, reproduction...

Think of it like a game... The way to win the game is by reproducing... Along the way, you can do all kinds of things like raising your stats, gaining abilities, etc... But the game winning goal is to pass on your genes... That's life...

All other functions of life seem to only exist in supporting of this one main goal... It's not as obvious at our state of complexity, but when you go down to the simplest forms, you begin to see that reproducing is their ultimate task... In fact, a lot of simple creatures die shortly after giving birth... The usefulness of their life is over...

Other life supporting life functions like eating or breathing end up being merely tools to keep the being alive long enough to reproduce... To have the energy and materials necessary to properly produce offspring...

It is the same for all life forms, regardless of complexity... Humans, however, have changed nature to our own artificial whims... We added a lot of unnatural life goals into the mix... But underneath it all, our ultimate goal is still to reproduce...

In fact, our bodies don't really last much longer after our childbearing days are over... Before we had the artificial means of medicine that keep life going past its prime, humans usually died in their 30's... Almost right after the peak of reproduction... If not for our medical system, and other artificial means of extending our lives, we'd probably still be dying at 30 or 40... Even as it is, our bodies still deteriorate after these ages, approaching in very old age a state of near uselessness before many of us finally die...

But the simple fact remains that the basic and ultimate goal of all life forms is to reproduce... And the two lifestyles discussed are obvious stumbling blocks to that goal... Not that either of them really prevents reproduction, but they both hinder its progress... So because of that, they are detrimental to the natural order of things...

But that is not to say they're inherently evil... Since we humans have changed our focus in life to include many other important goals, reproduction seemingly falls behind in importance... It still remains the natural number 1 goal, but in our artificial nature, it's not nearly as important...

However, incest in my opinion is by far the worse of the two... Homosexuality doesn't cause any harm to anyone... But incest (if resulting in offspring) causes potential harm to the offspring (as outlined in Alathon's post)... So it's much, much worse...

And I don't intend to say that homosexuality is bad... But it's definitely not the normal way things were intended by nature to be... And I find it hard to say that in the company we have here...but keep in mind that I don't consider "abnorml" to be a negative term... Heck, I'd consider myself abnormal for other reasons...

But anyways, these are my feelings on the subject...
#3 Jan 31 2003, 2:51 pm
In response to SuperSaiyanGokuX (#2)
SuperSaiyanGokuX wrote:
Think of it like a game... The way to win the game is by reproducing... Along the way, you can do all kinds of things like raising your stats, gaining abilities, etc... But the game winning goal is to pass on your genes... That's life...

People say that quite often.. but my opinion on it is this: Humans have evolved past that. Sure, when we were in our early stages (Neanderthals) or prehaps humanoids before that, that was our goal. Unfortunately, our goal isn't so clear now. I believe our goal is to live our life to the fullest as a good-hearted person, and to try to make the world a better place. Humans, however, haven't accomplished this. We've actually destroyed what was for the other animals in this world. I wish Humans wouldn't have attained our kind of intelligence.. but, hey, that's just my opinion.
#4 Jan 31 2003, 2:55 pm
In response to Dracon (#3)
Very true... I mentioned that we have altered our nature...and this is how...

However, most of our evolution is unnatural... We seem to be freaks of nature, in essence... The things we have done to the concept of life and the ways we have broken away from it aren't intended in the grand scheme of things...
#5 Jan 31 2003, 3:07 pm
Incest cannot introduce deficiencies that aren't already there... it simply a) concentrates existing deficiencies and b) over the very, very long term (as in the sort of time period required for meaningful mutation to take place), prevents new deficiencies (which is what most mutations are) from being spread out and diluted.

Does incest automatically cause birth defects? Nope.

There's little evidence that royal dynasties of Egypt suffered particularly from hemophilia or madness, as the Hapsburgs of Europe were reported to... the telling point here is that the Hapsburgs married cousins, the Egyptians married brothers to sisters. If incest were the direct cause of such maladies, then the Egyptians would've had the worst of it. The successful Egyptian dynasties started out with genes free of recessive defects, and kept them that way.

The taboo against incest has as much a sociological basis as a biological one... mating/marriage has always been a way of establishing ties with allies, trading partners, etc... it's not just a fresh exchange of genes but of ideas and ideals. A group which practices incest not only concentrates the defects in their genes but concentrates the defects in their society.

In today's society, were marriage (and other relations) are treated on more of a consensual basis from the point of view of the participants, incest has another damning factor... if a teacher or boss making sexual impositions on an underling is an abuse of power, how much worse is the case if the imposer is a parent or older sibling, the ultimate authority figures? This obviously didn't factor into the original taboo, which dates back to times when no one thought anything of a father ordering a daughter to marry a particular man, often at an age that would be considered inappropriate today.
#6 Jan 31 2003, 5:01 pm (Edited on Jan 31 2003, 11:10 pm)
A wise man, probably my dad, once told me [edit: I decided this quote, pithy though it is, is probably not apropos]. I believe many of society's (or God's) rules regarding sex are attempts to make men temper their natural urges for exploration and conquest -- which are not, in themselves, bad things, but which can lead to bad consequences if left unchecked -- by persuading men that it is honorable to assume responsibility for their actions. (And likewise, the traditional role of women in society may have served a useful social purpose, inasmuch as it prevented an ineffectual "feminine sensibility" from dominating the realm of political discourse -- but that's a separate issue, or at least in the scope of this post it is.)

There is certainly a case to be made that in an open, tolerant society, restraints on sexual behavior can be left behind, or at least are not proper targets for governmental intervention. But it's hard to say what the ultimate consequences of a society-wide abandonment of traditional sexual mores will be (which is to say, an open abandonment, endorsed by society, as opposed to individuals privately disregarding the dictates of society, which is one of the great constants of history); it's probably a moot point, though, because it looks like we'll be finding out what the consequences are, if any, in the next few decades.

My political sensibilities tell me that this is a good thing overall, because it represents a reduction in society's arrogation of rights to meddle in human affairs. On the other hand, to borrow a phrase from the comics, my spider-sense is tingling! And on the third hand, there are countless examples of people who already flout the traditional rules of sexual behavior while leading otherwise "normal" lives and without evincing the traits that conventional wisdom would lead us to expect, such as hairy palms, insanity, blindness, heroin addiction, and so forth. It's a puzzler, all right.
#7 Jan 31 2003, 5:02 pm
As off topic as Off Topic is, do keep in mind that these are BYOND forums, not argue about what you like and dislike forums. There are plenty of places where you can go to dispute with people about what's right and what's wrong in life, but dammit, this isn't the place to do it.
#8 Jan 31 2003, 5:10 pm
In response to Triste (#7)
Sorry to break it to you, but this section of the forums is made to post any topic outside of the BYOND universe, so there is no problem with Dareb posting this. He was not merely saying what he likes and dislikes, but was trying to see open minded opinions from other people, and I believe the title asked nicely to keep people like you from posting in this thread, but unfortunately you felt this was offensive and wrong. May I remind you/inform you that this topic is totally fine in most of the community's opinion, as it is also fine in the moderators opinion(Seeing as to how a moderator has replied to this topic without any warning given to Dareb about what he posted. Also a plus since it is the moderator's opinion that really counts, remember privately owned websites do not have to run a democracy type administration.). If you feel uncomfortable about this subject, then please do not reply or read it. If you do, you yourself is at fault for carrying through with reading the entire post, and if you did not read the entire post, then why would you of bothered replying?



<<>>Kusanagi<<>>
#9 Jan 31 2003, 7:01 pm
In response to Gughunter (#6)
You have more than two hands? Just like that guy on Super Bowl Bud Light commercial? What's it for? So you never have to put down your bud light?