ID:181685
 
Table of Contents

1-Intro
2-Solution Ideas
3-Expansion on Solution Ideas
4-An Opinion
5-So what should the information contain?
6-Conclusion


1
Really, it is extremley challenging for a person on Byond to learn code. The thing is, I dont want to just find tons of sources and get assistance. I want to be able to sit down with a book at a local library and quietly read a book with pen and paper, and learn about each code part whilst taking notes, then after studying for a few weeks be able to start writing code. Why can't it be this easy? Why do I have to scrap through slow-loading pages, and libraries with descriptions of coding vocabulary that I could never begin to understand unless somebody explained to me??


2
I beleive I have a solution. Byond needs to have tutors that are paid by people to teach them! People could pay say, 10 dollars a week for a 1 hour lesson. It would be great! I for sure would do this if possible. (and if anyone on this forum would like to do that, contact me, even though i only have about 90$ right now to spare). I beleive tutors would be a great way to spread this around.


3
WHY STOP THERE! Byond could be spread to schools! Byond should advertise itself as a program which could be used to teach coding by teachers. I for one at my school have some programming teachers that know java, C++, visual basic, scratch, and more, so I'm sure they could pick up on the language easily. BUT the thing is, people come to Byond with little knowledge of programming because it is supposed to be such a great program. Well, IT IS GREAT! But... its challenging at the same time.


4
In my opinion, which I trust you would most likley beleive is true, is that Byond cannot be learned without prior knowledge of another language, and owning a book of information is much more useful than scanning forums or looking at printed out papers.


5
So, what should this new source of information contain?
If there were to be a Byond book, it should have lots of pitcures, and it should not only explain WHAT each character does, but a list of the top situations it is used in, the definition in English
(ex of Enlgish
If usr.stunned = 0 If the user is not stunned
return do not use the first line
else else
return do not use a line)
But, not only should it have side comments like this. Each word should have a glossary dictionary definition in the back of the book! Also, another big part of Byond is iconning. There could be examples of close up images on how to icon with the different values. Also, the Byond skin currently is lacking in explination.And there should be explinations of how to stick images next to text.


6
Basically what I am Trying to explain to Byond owners and moderators, is that right now it is way too challenging and confusing to learn Byond Without a Tutor, and/or previous programming in a similar language. So I ask you, to please release a book jammed pack with information, thick as (insert big book here). Also, it would be great advertising if you were to reach out with your program to schools. You could sell licenses for the school to use Byond, which would greatly increase funds. And the more funds, the better Byond gets!
Aside from the whole in-school idea presented, I don't see how DM is too hard to learn without a tutor or previous experience. I started using BYOND when I was 14 back in 2001, a time when there was a lot less documentation than there is now, with absolutely no previous experience. In that almost 10 years time, I've forgotten a lot that I knew, and learned a lot I never knew before. All that is to say, even 10 years ago there was enough documentation that, coupled with the forums, anyone of any experience level can learn everything they need to know.
Darkjohn66 wrote:
Table of Contents

<font color=red>1-Intro</font color=red>
<font color=green>2-Solution Ideas</font color=green>
<font color=blue>3-Expansion on Solution Ideas</font color=blue>
<font color=purple>4-An Opinion</font color=purple>
<font color=silver>5-So what should the information contain?</font color=silver>
<font color=black>6-Conclusion</font color=black>


<font color=red>1</font color=red>
Really, it is extremley challenging for a person on Byond to learn code. The thing is, I dont want to just find tons of sources and get assistance. I want to be able to sit down with a book at a local library and quietly read a book with pen and paper, and learn about each code part whilst taking notes, then after studying for a few weeks be able to start writing code. Why can't it be this easy? Why do I have to scrap through slow-loading pages, and libraries with descriptions of coding vocabulary that I could never begin to understand unless somebody explained to me??

Thank You!!!, I have been complaining about it too but i was thinking of something a little different though. I was thinking about making some type of quiz that people can take. This quiz will determine where your coding level is at, it will ask you questions like "What is wrong with this piece of code?"[CODE] Then it will give you answer choices from A-D.It will also ask the programmer to use Dream maker to code simple program and check if it is right.This will be very helpful because it will show the programmer which area he needs to improve on.This is also less cheaper and easier than creating a book.It will aslo force the programmer to look back to the DM guide and ref.I have presented this idea to BYOND before with programmer levels and other stuff and cant recall how they shut me down.

Darkjohn66 wrote:
Why do I have to scrap through slow-loading pages, and libraries with descriptions of coding vocabulary that I could never begin to understand unless somebody explained to me??

and if your ever going to get a tutor , it is most likly that you will be getting tutored online unless you live near a coder because the only way they will be able to reach you is through the internet.Therefore you will be scrap through slow-loading pages, and libraries with descriptions of coding vocabulary anyway.
In response to Jotdaniel
Jotdaniel wrote:
Aside from the whole in-school idea presented, I don't see how DM is too hard to learn without a tutor or previous experience. I started using BYOND when I was 14 back in 2001, a time when there was a lot less documentation than there is now, with absolutely no previous experience. In that almost 10 years time, I've forgotten a lot that I knew, and learned a lot I never knew before. All that is to say, even 10 years ago there was enough documentation that, coupled with the forums, anyone of any experience level can learn everything they need to know.

I will agree with you that it is possible to learn to code without any tutor but byond can make it easier for the beginners.
In response to Jotdaniel
Jotdaniel wrote:
Aside from the whole in-school idea presented, I don't see how DM is too hard to learn without a tutor or previous experience. I started using BYOND when I was 14 back in 2001, a time when there was a lot less documentation than there is now, with absolutely no previous experience. In that almost 10 years time, I've forgotten a lot that I knew, and learned a lot I never knew before. All that is to say, even 10 years ago there was enough documentation that, coupled with the forums, anyone of any experience level can learn everything they need to know.

How are you supposed to code from scratch? Are we always going to be dreaded on taking ideas of ways of doing things from other code? Or will we be able to create a 100% game from only using the general folder. I do not understand what the function I am using actually does, its usually just a lucky guess, or source from some game. Im not actually learning anything.


and if your ever going to get a tutor , it is most likly that you will be getting tutored online unless you live near a coder because the only way they will be able to reach you is through the internet.Therefore you will be scrap through slow-loading pages, and libraries with descriptions of coding vocabulary anyway.

it would be much easier to stay on "one page" with teamviewer with a tutor than to have to swap back and forth between two copies of a dm guide, google, and alll that. Cant you just give me a Book byond, jam packed with what each part means, how to use them, the most used situations, and excersies to test if I really truly understand what I'm doing?
Darkjohn66 wrote:

<font color=blue>3</font color=blue>
WHY STOP THERE! Byond could be spread to schools! Byond should advertise itself as a program which could be used to teach coding by teachers. I for one at my school have some programming teachers that know java, C++, visual basic, scratch, and more, so I'm sure they could pick up on the language easily. BUT the thing is, people come to Byond with little knowledge of programming because it is supposed to be such a great program. Well, IT IS GREAT! But... its challenging at the same time.
I dont think that is a bad idea,this can help byond and schools. It can help children create a world of their dreams.

<font color=purple>4</font color=purple>
In my opinion, which I trust you would most likley beleive is true, is that Byond cannot be learned without prior knowledge of another language, and owning a book of information is much more useful than scanning forums or looking at printed out papers.

We have the DM guide its like a book.
<font color=silver>5</font color=silver>
So, what should this new source of information contain?
If there were to be a Byond book, it should have lots of pitcures, and it should not only explain WHAT each character does, but a list of the top situations it is used in, the definition in English
(ex of Enlgish
If usr.stunned = 0 If the user is not stunned
return do not use the first line
else else
return do not use a line)

The guide does the exact same thing look here

But, not only should it have side comments like this. Each word should have a glossary dictionary definition in the back of the book! Also, another big part of Byond is iconning. There could be examples of close up images on how to icon with the different values.
We have all that in the DM guide, open dreem maker and click F1.
<font color=black>6</font color=black>
Basically what I am Trying to explain to Byond owners and moderators, is that right now it is way too challenging and confusing to learn Byond Without a Tutor, and/or previous programming in a similar language. So I ask you, to please release a book jammed pack with information.


What do you really expect byond to publish a book and send it to millions of people? The DM is like an Online book that we use already
In response to Darkjohn66
Darkjohn66 wrote:
How are you supposed to code from scratch? Are we always going to be dreaded on taking ideas of ways of doing things from other code? Or will we be able to create a 100% game from only using the general folder. I do not understand what the function I am using actually does, its usually just a lucky guess, or source from some game. Im not actually learning anything.

Yes, i understand your pain i have been in your shoes arguing the samething a few years ago.Learning to code for some newcomers is a difficult task but it can be done and is not impossible.However, wouldn't it be a lot more easier if you knew your potential (ex.i know i can code only verbs but cant do battle systems yet) and your weakness? Then once you have figured out your weak spot you can go back to the DM on how to improve.

it would be much easier to stay on "one page" with teamviewer with a tutor than to have to swap back and forth between two copies of a dm guide, google, and alll that. Cant you just give me a Book byond, jam packed with what each part means, how to use them, the most used situations, and excersies to test if I really truly understand what I'm doing?

I dont understand what you mean here and i will find it very difficult to teach someone how to code online.
Darkjohn66 wrote:
I want to be able to sit down with a book at a local library and quietly read a book with pen and paper

Tom wrote[link]:
If you send a message to support with your address and paypal $5 to [email protected] (for shipping), I'll send you an old one. USA only though, because I don't want to wait in line at the post office.

Keep in mind that the old book is freely available for printout as a PDF here.724156

What you can download as 'guide' has been published as book before and wasn't much of a (monetary) success, as you can find on the forums with a couple of forum searches.


Darkjohn66 wrote:
Why can't it be this easy?

Most unfortunately, publishing books takes an investment and can cause a monetary drain. Not to mention that writing a decent book takes a lot of time, which could be spent on improving BYOND.


Darkjohn66 wrote:
coding vocabulary that I could never begin to understand unless somebody explained to me??

You can ask about next to everything your heart desires (BYOND programming related) on the developers forum. As long as you ask in a polite way and show that you have put forth effort on solving the problem yourself, I assure you that a lot of volunteers are bound to jump to your aid.


Darkjohn66 wrote:
People could pay

Most unfortunately, BYOND is a community of 'low monetary resource customers' (considering the average age of it's customers and their preferences in life).
BYOND is even struggling to get financial support by it's members (*cough* You don't have a membership either *cough* ;)).


Darkjohn66 wrote:
Byond could be spread to schools!

This has been suggested a *lot* of times before.
The problem is in convincing the teachers to bother with the language. So, as you said you'd love if this happened, go ahead and ask your teachers. You can hardly loose on this situation, because you 'show interest' (something most teachers appreciate) and I'm rather convinced that if a teacher contacts BYOND, assistance with any reasonable request would be granted.
If your school decides to use BYOND, you've actually reached your goal. If not, then you can provide more detailed feedback on why the attempt failed.


Darkjohn66 wrote:
Byond cannot be learned without prior knowledge of another language

That seems like a logic argument at first glance.
But if you reconsider, you are bound to find serious flaws in the argumentation.
BYOND is a *very simple* programming language, so, if you would need knowledge on a more tricky to grasp one in order to learn the easy one, how did you learn the tricky one in the first place?


Darkjohn66 wrote:
explain WHAT each character does, but a list of the top situations it is used in

That is a common misunderstanding.
Most beginning programmers underestimate the incredible amount of possibilities that a language carters for.


Darkjohn66 wrote:
You could sell licenses for the school to use Byond

Why? If they won't use the product for free, what makes you think they'd use it if they had to pay money?
BYOND would greatly profit (monetary wise) through the sheer amount of new customers from schools, but getting the schools to use BYOND is the tricky part.


Darkjohn66 wrote:
I do not understand what the function I am using actually does, its usually just a lucky guess, or source from some game.

I'd advice a simple solution here.
Take the reference and create simple, tiny projects. Focus on one bare bone functionality, but test whatever you want on it while reading the reference.
Most of that post made no sense.
In response to Darkjohn66
Darkjohn66 wrote:
it would be much easier to stay on "one page" with teamviewer with a tutor than to have to swap back and forth between two copies of a dm guide, google, and alll that. Cant you just give me a Book byond, jam packed with what each part means, how to use them, the most used situations, and excersies to test if I really truly understand what I'm doing?

the blue book does everything that you just asked. it seems to me like you're just looking for an easy way out; you want the convenience of not "having to swap back and forth" between pages and programs when learning. this isn't a matter of not having what you need to learn, it's about you being lazy-- and you're simply not going to be able to learn ANY programming language to any considerable extent by being lazy and attempting to get others to teach you instead of learning for yourself.

How are you supposed to code from scratch? Are we always going to be dreaded on taking ideas of ways of doing things from other code? Or will we be able to create a 100% game from only using the general folder. I do not understand what the function I am using actually does, its usually just a lucky guess, or source from some game. Im not actually learning anything.

from what you've said here it's extremely obvious that you haven't put forth any actual effort in utilizing the DM guide or any other resources in order to actually learn. DM is a simple language, and if you can't learn it, it's no fault but your own.
> Really, it is extremley challenging for a person on Byond to learn code. The thing is, I dont want to just find tons of sources and get assistance.

In my opinion, which I trust you would most likley beleive is true, is that Byond cannot be learned without prior knowledge of another language, and owning a book of information is much more useful than scanning forums or looking at printed out papers.

owning a book ... is much more useful than ... looking at printed out papers.

a book is much more useful than printed out papers.
In response to SuperAntx
I lol'd
In response to Zaole
Zaole wrote:
DM is a simple language, and if you can't learn it, it's no fault but your own.

Actually, it would be his parents' fault for having him even though they had IQ's of 75.
In response to AZA
We have the DM guide its like a book.
What do you really expect byond to publish a book and send it to millions of people? The DM is like an Online book that we use already

no pictures, no convientent layout, no side comments, only 1 or two examples per variable

The guide does the exact same thing look here

The guide does not have definitions of what each function does, it only explains how to use them in a single situation

Tom wroteid:724156:
If you send a message to support with your address and paypal $5 to [email protected] (for shipping), I'll send you an old one. USA only though, because I don't want to wait in line at the post office.

This book is outdated

which could be spent on improving BYOND.

would impoving the game quality not increase player amounts which would increase $.

You can ask about next to everything your heart desires (BYOND programming related) on the developers forum. As long as you ask in a polite way and show that you have put forth effort on solving the problem yourself, I assure you that a lot of volunteers are bound to jump to your aid.

Not necesarily

BYOND is even struggling to get financial support by it's members (*cough* You don't have a membership either *cough* ;)).

I agree Byond needs more membersip perks. Maybe an DM iconning tutorial and some pictures in the DM guide?

If your school decides to use BYOND, you've actually reached your goal. If not, then you can provide more detailed feedback on why the attempt failed.

I have trried to show this to a teacher at my school. They suggested it to students but never herself even tried it out from what i saw

BYOND is a *very simple* programming language

True, but, there is no *simple* way to learn it

That is a common misunderstanding.
Most beginning programmers underestimate the incredible amount of possibilities that a language carters for.

I can see where you're going there

Why? If they won't use the product for free, what makes you think they'd use it if they had to pay money?
BYOND would greatly profit (monetary wise) through the sheer amount of new customers from schools, but getting the schools to use BYOND is the tricky part.

There could be a membership license

Most of that post made no sense.

Maybe because you did not take the time to read it

the blue book does everything that you just asked. it seems to me like you're just looking for an easy way out; you want the convenience of not "having to swap back and forth" between pages and programs when learning. this isn't a matter of not having what you need to learn, it's about you being lazy-- and you're simply not going to be able to learn ANY programming language to any considerable extent by being lazy and attempting to get others to teach you instead of learning for yourself

I wish to learn a programming language by somebody, not have somebody reach for the remote control for me

from what you've said here it's extremely obvious that you haven't put forth any actual effort in utilizing the DM guide or any other resources in order to actually learn. DM is a simple language, and if you can't learn it, it's no fault but your own.

Explain this more please, although the length is long the allegory is short.

Look on the right side of that page. How could it be made easier?
explained in this post

And now here I will list all of the parts of the DM guide that seem to be lacking , if you are the average newbie programmer with no prior experience
1. The Macro and Skin Editor: Does not show something like this
mob/verb/Key1()
set hidden =1
var/obj/Macro/Macrobar1/M
for(M in usr.client.screen)
if(M:Action == "")
..()
else
call (/obj/Verbs/DblClick)()
Also, how can you set a movement state to this?
2. The Menu editor: Sure, it shows you how to create a menu and name it. But what is an ID, or a radio group? It needs an example, of say, how the quit button works.
3. Sound: Why is the vocabulary here so complicated?
4. Operator: all Operatores need examples, only some of them have examples.
5. Pop up menu verb isnt throughrouly explained
6. timeofday var: Needs a more thourough explanation with an example.
7. Skin: How do you set layers for each item on the skin?
As far as I can see its impossible to place a bar over a map, you can only use HUD objects with icon states, There should be an explination of how you can change a skin item's layer.
8.Links to popular libraries of the item you are currently using.

<small><font color=red>superant and jeff your posts are going off topic</small>




In response to Tales Number TwO
I will agree with you that it is possible to learn to code without any tutor but byond can make it easier for the beginners.

http://www.byond.com/developer/

Look on the right side of that page. How could it be made easier?
In response to Darkjohn66
Darkjohn66 wrote:
We have the DM guide its like a book.
What do you really expect byond to publish a book and send it to millions of people? The DM is like an Online book that we use already

no pictures, no convientent layout, no side comments, only 1 or two examples per variable

Because you need more than two examples?

The guide does the exact same thing look here

The guide does not have definitions of what each function does, it only explains how to use them in a single situation

It does explain them to a point, and the reference expounds them even more.

Tom wroteid:724156:
If you send a message to support with your address and paypal $5 to [email protected] (for shipping), I'll send you an old one. USA only though, because I don't want to wait in line at the post office.

This book is outdated

Outdated as in doesn't cover new features. You can still plug all its examples into an environment and they'll work. The only thing it doesn't really cover are (maybe) icon datums, skins, and a few other newer features.

which could be spent on improving BYOND.

would impoving the game quality not increase player amounts which would increase $.

Not really. The first book was a flop, can you see a second edition doing much better? 95% of BYOND's community is afraid of books.

You can ask about next to everything your heart desires (BYOND programming related) on the developers forum. As long as you ask in a polite way and show that you have put forth effort on solving the problem yourself, I assure you that a lot of volunteers are bound to jump to your aid.

Not necesarily

Yes necessarily. I used to help out there, and as long as someone wasn't a complete idiot, I would help them.

BYOND is even struggling to get financial support by it's members (*cough* You don't have a membership either *cough* ;)).

I agree Byond needs more membersip perks. Maybe an DM iconning tutorial and some pictures in the DM guide?

The pixel art guild provides all the tutorials you need as far as art goes, and the DM guide doesn't really need pictures, as I can't really see what those pictures would be of.

BYOND is a *very simple* programming language

True, but, there is no *simple* way to learn it

Actually, there is. Go read Zilal's beginner tutorials to get a basic grasp of the language's syntax, and then read what you understand of the DM guide along with the reference. You can also look at properly programmed demos.

Why? If they won't use the product for free, what makes you think they'd use it if they had to pay money?
BYOND would greatly profit (monetary wise) through the sheer amount of new customers from schools, but getting the schools to use BYOND is the tricky part.

There could be a membership license

I don't get why you're still going at this. Schnitzel already explained why schools shouldn't have to pay, and besides, Tom already said he will never have anyone pay to use suite.

Most of that post made no sense.

Maybe because you did not take the time to read it

No, it just didn't make sense.

the blue book does everything that you just asked. it seems to me like you're just looking for an easy way out; you want the convenience of not "having to swap back and forth" between pages and programs when learning. this isn't a matter of not having what you need to learn, it's about you being lazy-- and you're simply not going to be able to learn ANY programming language to any considerable extent by being lazy and attempting to get others to teach you instead of learning for yourself

I wish to learn a programming language by somebody, not have somebody reach for the remote control for me

No, you're being lazy. "I need book 'cause switching between programs too hard!" is exactly what you were saying.

from what you've said here it's extremely obvious that you haven't put forth any actual effort in utilizing the DM guide or any other resources in order to actually learn. DM is a simple language, and if you can't learn it, it's no fault but your own.

Explain this more please, although the length is long the allegory is short.

Lol, what? That was not an allegory; look up words before you use them.


And now here I will list all of the parts of the DM guide that seem to be lacking , if you are the average newbie programmer with no prior experience
1. The Macro and Skin Editor: Does not show something like this
mob/verb/Key1()
set hidden =1
var/obj/Macro/Macrobar1/M
for(M in usr.client.screen)
if(M:Action == "")
..()
else
call (/obj/Verbs/DblClick)()
Also, how can you set a movement state to this?\

Wow, you're truly terrible at programming if you really are trying to do anything with that code. If you actually read the guide, you wouldn't be doing that. Regardless, the guide doesn't cover skins, but Lummox JR has an excellent set of articles on them that you should probably read.

2. The Menu editor: Sure, it shows you how to create a menu and name it. But what is an ID, or a radio group? It needs an example, of say, how the quit button works.

BYOND's skin reference explains this.

3. Sound: Why is the vocabulary here so complicated?

Because there is such a thing as a dictionary. Regardless, I believe the Dream Makers guild has a few articles on this, at least one, in fact. Regardless, words like "frequency" are not complicated.

4. Operator: all Operatores need examples, only some of them have examples.

Most operators are self explanatory, while others (the bitwise operators) have an article or two about them in the Dream Makers guild. Also, the reference and simple understanding of what "returns" means should explain everything you need to know about these.

5. Pop up menu verb isnt throughrouly explained

You're going to have to specify what you mean here. Regardless, the reference explains these very well.

6. timeofday var: Needs a more thourough explanation with an example.

It says it is the number of 1/10 seconds since the beginning of the day. Isn't that enough of an explanation?

7. Skin: How do you set layers for each item on the skin?

Once again, I refer you to the article on skins.

As far as I can see its impossible to place a bar over a map, you can only use HUD objects with icon states, There should be an explination of how you can change a skin item's layer.

No. There's a god damn button that says "move up layer" in the skin editor.

8.Links to popular libraries of the item you are currently using.

What? This makes no sense. Are you saying that the DM Guide should link you to a library on sounds, etc.? There are very few situations where this isn't pointless.

<small><font color=red>superant and jeff your posts are going off topic</small>

And now you're the forum police?
In response to Jeff8500
jeff i just wish to keep the post going instead of having it being shut down by pointless comments by an admin

to the Libary question
I am saying that say you go look @ skins. There should be links to skin guides. Say you want to set a macro. There could be a link to that. Know what im saying?
In response to Darkjohn66
Ah, what a fantastically intelligent response to a post describing the flaws of your idea unreasonable demands in detail.
In response to Tales Number TwO
Tales Number TwO wrote:
I dont understand what you mean here and i will find it very difficult to teach someone how to code online.

Google wave. Be patient or get a few invites.
In response to DivineTraveller
Or any IM program. I personally have a liking for Pidgin, which acts as a multi-purpose client (AIM/MSN/YIM).
Page: 1 2