Rebrand Byond 500 and kickstarter in BYOND Discussion

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Jul 27 2012, 10:15 am
I would love to see BYOND bring in a bit more money, seems to me that BYOND lacks two things: (1) effective advertising and (2) Any money whatsoever.

Once flash deployment is ready for launch, why not rebrand the platform? Come up with a more marketable name, shed the low quality tile based game reputation that has followed for years which have been addressed with interface/large icon flexibility and other new features and re-release the platform and change the site branding as well.

The point of this is that, go on www.kickstarter.com and say that you are working on an online game making platform for 2d games that can be run as a standalone exe, flash game or on a community site and just see how much interest pours in. You could raise some much needed capital AND get serious advertising and then re-launch and get both an infusion of new interest and some project funding to keep Tom and LummoxJr from perishing from Ramen Noodle malnutrition.

It is just an idea.
#1 Jul 27 2012, 10:18 am
I think they've been eating ramen for so long, they probably wouldn't even accept any other type of food at this point.

Also I see no need to change the name. BYOND is an awesome name.
#2 Jul 27 2012, 10:23 am
BYOND is a good name, but it is an old name too. People have associations when they think of BYOND, particularly those from outside. Those associations arent great, basically they amount to laggy/buggy/poor graphic dragonball games. I do like the name a great deal, and would miss it, but I think if you wanted to get some new interest then it would have to be presented as a "new" product to those who have never heard of it before.

Just look at some of the shit games which have raised over 100k from kickstarter, BYOND could easily outpace these: http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/games/ most-funded?ref=more#p3
#3 Jul 27 2012, 10:35 am
Back to DUNG, the true form of this entire existence!
#4 Jul 27 2012, 10:39 am
Now that I think about it, naming it DUNG again would probably cause membership purchases to skyrocket! LETS DO IT.
#5 Jul 27 2012, 11:11 am
Dear God.. The internet would come up with so many horrible puns if BYOND switched back to DUNG..
#6 Jul 27 2012, 11:12 am
If Greg Miller has a little spot on his show, it'd be: Beyond! BYOND.
#7 Jul 27 2012, 11:16 am
Sadly enough, too many people already consider it DUNG.

I don't see Tom changing the name any time in the near future, but I agree that a re-branding might get people to see what BYOND has become and how it is quickly becoming even more. I personally consider it much more than a crap, laggy anime fest, it's just hard to get others to believe that just mentioning the name "BYOND".
#8 Jul 27 2012, 12:15 pm
Well, if no one likes DUNG, then why not something cool like SCAT or Fe-C's?

Humor aside, I do believe that the software would benefit greatly from a complete reboot, built for more optimization. Unfortunately that won't appear to be happening anything in the near future.
#9 Jul 27 2012, 12:38 pm
I think the platform as it is now, and what it will be with a flash client will be very successful if marketed correctly. It has come a long way since 2004.
#10 Jul 27 2012, 12:51 pm
Heh. I don't get why every time the Kickstarter is mentioned.. somebody says, "it wont work", or "it doesn't need to use that". Even in Chatters this was said. I've seen projects on Kickstarter that I wouldn't donate 5 cents to. All you need is a video demonstrating and explaining what BYOND is and could be. Then people catch on, and start tossing money towards it. I believe it's worth a try. There is nothing to lose, but the campaign in which we'll still be here, as-is. Nothing wrong with that.
#11 Jul 27 2012, 12:58 pm
The main issue with Kickstarter is that it is selling investment shares in return for something (typically a beta release of a product that will cost money when it is out). We don't really sell anything. Now we could propose a new system "BYOND X" that is a complete revamp of the language and system (I have a bunch of ideas but basically it would be a simplified language that targets a variety of platforms). That, however, is a sizable commitment for which I'd want to get a team of developers and would require a lot of funding (like $500K) upfront. So mostly pipe dream at this point.
#12 Jul 27 2012, 1:23 pm
Selling a return is difficult, you definitely lack a profit model at this point outside of memberships, licensing and what have you. You'd feel a little guilty selling something for less value than it is worth and I understand that. I guess the real issue is monetizing a platform. I can tell you that if you offered me HTML5 or even flash porting of a game, but in order to get that game ported I had to pay you 80-150 dollars + 25% of any revenues earned on that game, I would pay it. If the business model sold is really on a revenue stream of game makers, maybe you could do something.

Kickstart maybe 200,000 in funds, propose a business plan hoping to obtain 2,500 total licensed games or some combination of a lower number + some additional revenue stream from the 25% of moneys earned on the projects themselves as a breakeven point. The upside potential being the possibility of much more attention. Based on historic results that is highly optimistic, but you know if you dream big and get the funding and get the attention it creates the best chance of having that happen. Regardless I think BYOND has enormous untapped potential, it needs developers somehow so maybe an alternative advertising plan could be formulated too. I feel like BYOND just needs some advertising materials, the same way that google sets up a page with a video walking through a projects features and some data on what the product offers and what has been done so far. Then we could go to places like Reddit.com/r/GameDev or just reddit.com/r/gaming and bring some attention to the platform.



#13 Jul 27 2012, 1:31 pm
I agree with you that BYOND has a lot of untapped potential, and we definitely do need to market it better (Kickstarter or not). My current thinking is that if a game like NEStalgia or Eternia takes off, that will be a big help in bringing not just players but devs, too, since having a "real" game created in BYOND just adds enormous credibility to the tools.

My concern with the existing product is that it is a bit of a niche; it's pretty good for hobbyists but I think most of the hardcore developers will be turned off by the fundamental limitations (even though, realistically, it's one of the best ways to actually create a finished game instead of a 10% completed one).

Knowing how people use the product now, after so many years, we could make a much more mainstream system that is based on the same networking concepts that make BYOND so useful, but gives more flexibility by getting out of this tile-based ATOM framwork as well as the current platform-dependence. But that would be a big project. That's one that we could potentially get funding for, but it would help if our existing effort (BYOND) itself had more success.
#14 Jul 27 2012, 1:33 pm
Actually, thats a good point too. One thing people love in the current days, is video. YouTube is a fine example. If Tom actually made a video of himself talking about what BYOND is... I bet it'd get quite a few views, comments, and subscribers on YouTube. The creator(s) needs to be seen. Plus with the large sum of BYOND users with a YouTube account, they'd most likely subscribe or "like" the video, thus pushing it up in the Featured Video display. Obviously the users of the software (us) can make a video on BYOND, but it'd be a lot more powerful to hear about it from the man himself.

Edit: You could even mix in small clips of several successful or just plain fun games created with this software, to spice the video up a bit.
#15 Jul 27 2012, 1:37 pm
I love dreammaker, I love the format of the language and I really enjoy the mapmaking tools and really everything about developing on BYOND. Where the untapped potential lies is in compatibility and being able to move finished game projects to other platforms such as tablets, phones, macs, steam, websites, stand-alone installations and whatever. The move to flash is a great start, A further move to platform independence sounds intriguing too. I think some people will point out the flaw with porting to flash what with the limited lifespan of that platform in general, but they are missing the point. The fact that BYOND has been ported to one platform tells me you guys have the methods and the expertise to do this in the future when circumstances change. I would eagerly watch how you adapt to the emergence of HTML5 gaming as it relates to mobile devices and compatibility in general. You are doing a fantastic job, transitioning BYOND from the Blog and community focused platform in to having portability outside of the immediate BYOND community is a very very exciting thing.,
#16 Jul 27 2012, 2:00 pm
In response to Branks (#14)
Branks wrote:
Actually, thats a good point too. One thing people love in the current days, is video. YouTube is a fine example. If Tom actually made a video of himself talking about what BYOND is... I bet it'd get quite a few views, comments, and subscribers on YouTube. The creator(s) needs to be seen. Plus with the large sum of BYOND users with a YouTube account, they'd most likely subscribe or "like" the video, thus pushing it up in the Featured Video display. Obviously the users of the software (us) can make a video on BYOND, but it'd be a lot more powerful to hear about it from the man himself.

Edit: You could even mix in small clips of several successful or just plain fun games created with this software, to spice the video up a bit.

A very valid point, I've seen BYOND game related youtube videos with in excess of 25,000 views. That is pretty reasonable exposure. Get somebody snappy with a video editor and some actual well thought out presentation material and you could put together what is essentially an advertisement. Show off some of the games made with the language and show how easy it is to make an online MMORPG. That is a really, really easy sell.

Case in point: Look at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UASQiU6FYns

That video is of HORRIBLE quality, took it with a videocamera instead of using a proper screen recorder. 20,000+ hits. Wow. Problem is you get a bad crowd advertising on youtube I guess, if you make a youtube video and post it on the game development community on reddit? better odds.
#17 Jul 27 2012, 2:06 pm
In response to Tom (#13)
Tom wrote:
I agree with you that BYOND has a lot of untapped potential, and we definitely do need to market it better (Kickstarter or not). My current thinking is that if a game like NEStalgia or Eternia takes off, that will be a big help in bringing not just players but devs, too, since having a "real" game created in BYOND just adds enormous credibility to the tools.

BYOND needs to get better before you can make BYOND better. I'm not sure that's the best plan. I'm sure there are things that can be done to make BYOND more credible aside from waiting for a game to get popular. It's not credible because it doesn't look like a serious game development program (though with tabs and line numbers, that's improving) and because the official resources are outdated. With a nicer interface and updated guide (but the same internals) it'd be a lot better.

My concern with the existing product is that it is a bit of a niche; it's pretty good for hobbyists but I think most of the hardcore developers will be turned off by the fundamental limitations (even though, realistically, it's one of the best ways to actually create a finished game instead of a 10% completed one).

It's easy for BYOND to attract first-time game developers because they aren't familiar with any game development programs. They have no knowledge of any platforms and getting started with BYOND looks about as easy as getting started with anything else. BYOND doesn't attract the more "hardcore" developers because they already have game development experience and are already comfortable with some other game development platform. It's easier for them to stick with their platform of choice than to start from scratch with BYOND. BYOND would need something to really impress those developers and the only thing it has is native multiplayer support - other programs/platforms have graphics/map/interface editors and handle the things BYOND handles for you (movement, sound, graphics, etc.).

Knowing how people use the product now, after so many years, we could make a much more mainstream system that is based on the same networking concepts that make BYOND so useful, but gives more flexibility by getting out of this tile-based ATOM framwork as well as the current platform-dependence. But that would be a big project. That's one that we could potentially get funding for, but it would help if our existing effort (BYOND) itself had more success.

There's nothing wrong with the world being tile-based. It might turn out better if you plan to have pixel movement from the start but it's not terribly limiting to have pixel-based movement in a tile-based world.
#18 Jul 27 2012, 2:41 pm
I agree with a lot of what you are saying Forum_Account, however I do think that BYOND does a good job on the map editor, the intuitive atom hiarchy and the visual basic feel of the interface system. You know what it does need? An open source collaborative game environment to demo to new users of dreammaker so that it doesnt look sooo daunting when you open that blank white screen up.
#19 Jul 28 2012, 5:51 am
In response to DvK87 (#18)
DvK87 wrote:
however I do think that BYOND does a good job on the map editor, the intuitive atom hiarchy and the visual basic feel of the interface system.

It's not that there's anything wrong with BYOND's map editor, just that other game development programs have map editors too. The fact that BYOND has a map editor will appeal to someone who has never made a game before. It won't be as appealing to someone who has made games before because they're already familiar with a different, comparable map editor. The same thing applies to the interface editor. If you've never made an interface before, BYOND's interface editor is appealing. But, if you've made games and interfaces before you have used other interface editors and BYOND's doesn't offer anything that'd win you over.

For these reasons, most of the things that are considered appealing about BYOND aren't that appealing to game developers who are familiar with other platforms. If you've used Visual Studio's GUI editor, you won't be impressed with BYOND's. It's not that BYOND needs a better interface editor but that they need to focus on the kinds of things that BYOND can offer that other platforms can't (or don't) provide *cough*.
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