Adopt a Novice in Off Topic

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#20 Jul 4 2011, 4:54 pm
Cody123100 wrote:
ExPixel wrote:
Yeah some people tried to make some tutorials but they only go as far as how to change icons and things like that. No one has done anything about that for a while.

That would be because youtube videos are an inefficient way to teach someone something. It would require several takes to make perfect as well as a decent amount of editing if you ever need to add anything to what you had already stated.

Incremental chapters with exercises for the student (exercises that actually require them to put what they learned in the previous chapters to use) are the way to go, but hardly anyone would really read them let alone perform the exercises. Most users of DM don't really want to learn how to develop software; they just want to learn the quickest, most cookie-cutter way of pumping their game out there.


http://www.youtube.com/thenewboston#p/p
#21 Jul 4 2011, 4:57 pm
@ExPixel
I have everything needed to make video tutorials, but they wouldn't be all that effective without good documentation and support behind them.

That said, I wouldn't mind making a video series if we had a few people helping out. Mostly just making sure I'm not teaching something wrong and to pitch in with the more advanced stuff.

A general idea to help educate new programmers, integrate real tutorials with the major libraries. Pixel Movement, Sidescroller, Pathfinding, etc.

The big libraries that could be really useful to a lot of games should have a better way of learning to use them than just poring over the documentation until you figure it out. Maybe explain some of the concepts behind it so that the new blood can get a better idea of how and why things work the way they do.

Again, this is something I wouldn't mind doing in video/text format if I could get the creators to help me out with it a bit.

When I started using Theodis's Pathfinding I was at a loss for how to actually do much with it. It took me a good few hours to really get my bearings with it, and a couple days to really understand how to manipulate it. To this day I still don't know why or how it does what it does, just how to use it for the 2 specific applications I need it for.

Sorry about all the walls of text, I tend to ramble about anything and everything that's related to the topic.
#22 Jul 4 2011, 4:58 pm
That's still far less efficient than a good book with a table of contents and an index.
#23 Jul 4 2011, 4:59 pm
Robertbanks2 wrote:
@ExPixel
Long.

I wouldn't mind helping out, thing is I don't have a mic.

#24 Jul 4 2011, 4:59 pm
Cody123100 wrote:
That's still far less efficient than a good book with a table of contents and an index.

Cody people barely have the attention span to get through the first 3 topics in the DM Guide, a good book wouldn't solve much of the problem.
#25 Jul 4 2011, 5:05 pm
ExPixel wrote:
Cody people barely have the attention span to get through the first 3 topics in the DM Guide, a good book wouldn't solve much of the problem.

If you look at that man's videos he basically has a 50% retention rate after the first videos in all of his series. In the case of his java tutorials (a relatively easy language for beginners) he drops down from over 800,000 views on his first video to 400,000 on his second and eventually down to just over 100,000.

Videos can be cumbersome and frustrating when learning to program, and are also hard to navigate if you're trying to find one specific thing you are trying to remember.
#26 Jul 4 2011, 5:06 pm
ExPixel wrote:
Cody123100 wrote:
That's still far less efficient than a good book with a table of contents and an index.

Cody people barely have the attention span to get through the first 3 topics in the DM Guide, a good book wouldn't solve much of the problem.

The DM guide is just that, a guide. It's not really all that great as a tutorial. It tells you what things are and gives a few examples of how they can be used. The problem with this is that most people starting off on BYOND aren't programmers, they need more than a trussed up reference with a little witty banter between examples.

The video series wouldn't be the entire tutorial, but rather an aid to it. They could show off more complex examples with more in depth explanations that don't require the student to read a bunch of boring text, because, as EP said, people don't have the attention span to read a big boring book. If we could say, "Hey, we have a big book to read, a forum dedicated to teaching beginners how to make games, and a video series to boot!", I imagine a lot more people would be willing to at least try learning properly.
#27 Jul 4 2011, 5:06 pm
Cody123100 wrote:
ExPixel wrote:
Cody people barely have the attention span to get through the first 3 topics in the DM Guide, a good book wouldn't solve much of the problem.

If you look at that man's videos he basically has a 50% retention rate after the first videos in all of his series. In the case of his java tutorials (a relatively easy language for beginners) he drops down from over 800,000 views on his first video to 400,000 on his second and eventually down to just over 100,000.

Videos can be cumbersome and frustrating when learning to program, and are also hard to navigate if you're trying to find one specific thing you are trying to remember.

Some people find it easier to learn in different ways. I find it hard to learn from a book but I rarely forget something a person says.
#28 Jul 4 2011, 6:59 pm
I watch the newboston too! :D

And of course his first videos would have more views - they've been around longer meaning they have had more time to muster views. People watch his content and learn from it otherwise he wouldn't be going through the trouble of making tutorials. He's actually taken it as far as hiring people to do tutorials on things not related to computers, like math and science.

Also, the videos are not hard to navigate. They have titles for a reason - so you can know exactly what will be discussed in the video.

Really it depends on the person though. Everyone doesn't learn the same way. I couldn't even stand the first few paragraphs of the DM guide. I couldn't deal with the thought of myself having to wait until I finish all those walls of text to create something.

However, I found it easy to listen to thenewboston. He's makes videos that get to the point and he also reflects back to previous videos, sort of like a quick recap, so that you can remember what you're learning.

But as I said, there really is no "best" way to learn something because everyone learns in different ways. You can't just teach something one way and expect everyone to be able to learn it. Some people like reading guides, some watch videos, some need 1 on 1 mentoring. All methods should be used.

I learned from Zilal tutorials and the Elysium source, and a few developer forum questions here and there.
#29 Jul 4 2011, 7:02 pm
EmpirezTeam wrote:
But as I said, there really is no "best" way to learn something because everyone learns in different ways. You can't just teach something one way and expect everyone to be able to learn it. Some people like reading guides, some watch videos, some need 1 on 1 mentoring. All methods should be used.

Another rare non-trolling ET post with a valid point.
#30 Jul 4 2011, 7:10 pm
Cody123100 wrote:
Another rare non-trolling ET post with a valid point.

Indeed. Enjoy my wise moments while you can - they don't last for long.
#31 Jul 4 2011, 8:07 pm
So, aside from ideas and saying it would be awesome, is anyone here actually willing to put forth the effort to DO some of these things? I've already stated that I'm willing and able to do some of the things discussed here, but it won't work if I'm the only one actually doing anything about it.

So, again, anyone actually interested in doing it, rather than just talking about it?
#32 Jul 4 2011, 8:07 pm
Robertbanks2 wrote:
So, aside from ideas and saying it would be awesome, is anyone here actually willing to put forth the effort to DO some of these things? I've already stated that I'm willing and able to do some of the things discussed here, but it won't work if I'm the only one actually doing anything about it.

So, again, anyone actually interested in doing it, rather than just talking about it?

Nah, I'll just stick to talking about it. Turns out it's much easier.
#33 Jul 4 2011, 9:03 pm
Robertbanks2 wrote:
So, aside from ideas and saying it would be awesome, is anyone here actually willing to put forth the effort to DO some of these things? I've already stated that I'm willing and able to do some of the things discussed here, but it won't work if I'm the only one actually doing anything about it.

So, again, anyone actually interested in doing it, rather than just talking about it?

I wouldn't mind really, I'd rather not have people be lost like I was.
#34 Jul 5 2011, 8:23 am
"programming" is a term that covers a growing/changing set of skills. It's not a simple skill, like building bird houses, that you can teach to someone and have them go off and happily build bird houses. Programmers constantly have to learn new things, so "teaching someone to program" would really mean that you're teaching someone how to learn and figure things out for themself.

This is difficult and time consuming. It begs the question: how does this help BYOND? Why have the better developers spend so much time helping the novices so that the novices can make better games when the better developers can make good games to begin with? You could cut out the teaching bit and you'd get good games made 5 years sooner.

Obviously its a good idea to have more experienced developers help the less experienced ones, and the one-on-one model sounds great, but it just isn't practical. Human interaction is important - its a complex enough topic that you can't write a tutorial that everyone will understand, people will have questions that need human-generated responses. There's a more practical way to answer questions and help people than to devote one experienced developer (of which there are few) to an inexperienced developer (of which there are many).
#35 Jul 5 2011, 8:59 am
I'm pretty sure Iruka's Class is going to solve all the problems.
#36 Jul 5 2011, 9:11 am
EmpirezTeam wrote:
I'm pretty sure Iruka's Class is going to solve all the problems.

We might want a backup plan :-)

That also brings up another point: any time you have an arbitrary student/teacher designation, you'll have people who 1. Want to be teachers even though they aren't qualified, and 2. Don't want to be students because they consider themselves to be more advanced than that.

A forum does a good job of handling most of these issues. I'll admit that BYOND's developer forum is often useless (sometimes even counterproductive), but that's more of a problem with the users. It might be a better use of time to figure out how to fix that problem.
#37 Jul 5 2011, 9:35 am
I don't agree with this. You have a handful of "good developers" on BYOND who do small projects and basically just help out around here but don't actually contribute game wise to BYOND. The contribution they do make is in the tutorials they create or the people they help on the forums or what have you. Then you also have the very few "good developers" who make actual games. For the most part these developers are successful but in general a decent amount of them end up quitting or putting there projects on pause for lack of certain material such as icons, or GFX or general help or what have you.

So we have a few good developers who make games and succeed and a decent amount who don't so they constantly change or make new projects that fail, and then we have a bunch who kind of hang around BYOND giving help here and there.

This is not helping BYOND in the least. Yes good tutorials and libraries are great. And yes the few good games around here and great. But with so many members and so few decent games, it really begs to raise the question "what are we doing wrong?" So many games are no longer worked on or hosted, or just bad games in general that the few that are good are severely out numbered. I feel the reasoning behind this is that there are so many people who want to learn DM and try but fail (making rips or bad games and then giving up on them) and so few people who know DM well enough to make good games actually making good games (Making good games and sticking with them continuing to update them and work on them or making multiple polished games).

This all being said, I think it would make sense for those good developers who are willing to take on a few others to help teach them. It might not be the most efficient way but it would be a good start to helping others who are genuinely interested in learning. And if enough people did it, in 5 years we could have many great games as opposed to now where we have a few great games and a bunch of rips or poorly made games and very little interest in BYOND.
#38 Jul 5 2011, 10:21 am (Edited on Jul 5 2011, 10:29 am)
1. You're correct that a lot of the more experienced developers are not too active, productive, or helpful. So where do these tutors come from? If people who supposedly enjoy game development don't have the motivation to finish developing a game, where do they get the motivation to be a tutor?

2. How do we know that the inexperienced developers will be productive after being tutored? I would expect that the majority of them would have trouble completing projects too. If 1 out of every 100 DM developers is productive, I'd expect the same percentage of newly-tutored programmers to be productive. That's a lot of wasted time spent by the tutors.

Edit: I do agree that tutoring would be effective, its just not practical. It's better to spend 20 hours making a tutorial even if the knowledge gained from it could be learned from 1 hour of tutoring because the tutorial can reach so many people.
#39 Jul 5 2011, 11:09 am
Well if that's the case then perhaps instead of tutoring, a few of the better developers should get together and make a series of tutorials and guides to programming. And by this, I don't mean what we have now were every here and there someone makes a tutorial on something they did or a little library on something they found interesting, and you have to search through a ton of useless crap to find it. There should be a section of BYOND devoted to this where the top developers (Or certain developers) can come together once a week or a couple of times a week even and make a series of tutorials and libraries for those interested in learning to follow.

Like a modern interactive DM guide. Going form the very basics like how to make design documents, and coming up with concepts for games, to the actual start of a game and learning organization and optimization skills with simple concepts and then finally moving on to more complex ones as time goes on.

This could incorporate video's, pictures, little assignments and test at the end of each segment, etc, that will give a variety of learning skills. Even if only 1 or 2 programmers commit to this it will still be better for the whole of BYOND and reach more people than tutoring. And might give the inactive developers something to do.
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