Rip Conundrum in Off Topic

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ID:107359
 
Jan 20 2011, 6:52 pm (Edited on Jan 20 2011, 7:07 pm)
Everyone is looking at rips the wrong way. Sure they may all be based from the same source, but that's just a means to an end. Any project that was actually created would bear little-to-no resemblance to another. Rips may be born by acquiring another person's source code, but that shouldn't be the determining factor.

Commercial Rips. These games are nearly identical. They may have slightly more, or different content than their predecessors, some things may be improved, others degraded. But as an overall product, these games are nearly identical, and are, for the most part, just a quick attempt to suck more money out of consumers. Things that could have been patched into the original game.
Left 4 Dead vs Left 4 dead 2
Assassin's Creed 2 vs AC Brotherhood
Dynasty Warriors vs Samurai Warriors vs Devil Kings
Fallout 3 vs Fallout New Vegas
*BYOND: Zeta vs Finale

Commercial Fan Games. These are rarely rips/clones of each other. More often completely different games that just happen to feature the same characters/story themes. These games are based off of some source material, sometimes other games, sometimes non-game material like TV shows or movies. They may use the same base material, however, they almost always provide radically different game-play experiences.
Kingdom Hearts is a fan-game of Disney movies + Final Fantasy games. Its game-play, however, is entirely its own concept.
HandHeld KHs should all be considered Fan Games of KH1&2. Though these games attempt to follow the same gaming concepts set forth by the KH series, they fall pretty flat, and don't offer nearly as fluid an experience. On the other hand, they bring their own ideas, game-play mechanics, characters, etc. While still being based off of the original KH concept
Sword of Etheria could also be considered a Fan Game of Kingdom Hearts, as it employs remotely similar gameplay mechanics.
Commercial Bleach/Naruto/DBZ games are fan games of the anime, but not of other games. They each offer completely different play and graphical styles.
FF Dissidia. This is a nearly perfect example of a fan game of a game. It takes characters and some concepts from another series (Final Fantasy) but offers a completely different gameplay style and compilation of stories and characters. The same could be said for Super Smash Bros.
*BYOND: REO vs Resident Evil

Commercial Sequels. IMO, for a game to truly be a sequel, it has to improve upon almost everything (mainly graphics and game-play), reuse almost nothing (aside from the basic concept), and add completely new content/story/characters/mechanics/etc.
Assassin's Creed 1 to 2. This is a nearly perfect example of what a sequel should be. Better graphics, a new story and characters, new settings, massively improved almost every aspect of gameplay, new systems added, etc.
Kingdom Hearts 1 to 2. Almost the same sequel quality as AC2.
Final Fantasy Series. Though these games all tend to use the same basic concepts, their content, and some game-play, is almost entirely changed for each new rendition.
DBZ/Bleach/Naruto Games of the Same Series. ie: DBZ Budokai 3 compared to 1 is a pretty massive improvement to practically every system, along with adding tons of new content, gameplay mechanics, graphical style, and better overall appeal of the game.
*BYOND: Heroes United 1 vs HU2
#1 Jan 20 2011, 6:58 pm
Commercial Bleach/Naturo/DBZ game

You spelled wrong Naruto. :'(

Anyway, i understand this. But i don't get why you posted it. People will not stop crying for rips. (If that was the point of the post)
#2 Jan 20 2011, 7:01 pm
Ocean King wrote:
You spelled wrong Naruto. :'(
Whoops, fixed.

I don't get why you posted it.
Mostly because Tom seems to be incapable of deciding what makes a rip a rip, the community in general for that matter.
#3 Jan 20 2011, 7:07 pm
Okay, what? You do realize all of those commercial games youve pointed out as rips either have license to use thier characters and engines, or they themselves CREATED those engines/characters to begin with.

Im not exactly sure what your point is either, mind clarifying?
#4 Jan 20 2011, 7:11 pm
Neblim wrote:
Is a fork in an open source project a rip? God forbid someone forking a project to keep it alive.

Basically, you're using people works without permission (Otherwise it's anime).
The owner may release source, but that doesn't mean that you can do anything with it.
#5 Jan 20 2011, 7:11 pm
Pmitch wrote:
Im not exactly sure what your point is either, mind clarifying?

Just because the people who made L4D1 also made L4D2 doesn't make it any less of a cheap ripoff (rip, see).
Just because the makers of Budokai have official use of DBZ doesn't make it any less of a fan game.
My point is the definition and new exclusionary systems need refinement.
#6 Jan 20 2011, 7:13 pm
Neblim wrote:
Is a fork in an open source project a rip?

Yes, or a mod, or a clone, or a "fork", whatever you want to call it.
The proper way to handle such an event is the way Space Station 13 did. By rightfully admitting your game is a "fork" and keeping them all combined on a single hub entry. As you can see, properly handling the situation worked out very well for them.
Tom recently posted about implementing an official linking system for such cases.
#7 Jan 20 2011, 7:20 pm
There's a difference between "rip" and "spin-off", "mod" or "clone".
#8 Jan 20 2011, 7:23 pm
You'll have to explain what you mean there. I am saying there is a difference between rips and the likes of "Assassin's Creed 2", "Heroes United 2", or "New Vegas".

(As for an "open source" case, Chatters is a small-scale one, Legacy of Heroes - or what ever that game's name was - is notable and Space Station is borderline, although I'm not sure what this is about. That is unless you're Airjoe (don't kill me!).)
#9 Jan 20 2011, 7:34 pm
They're multiplying.
#10 Jan 20 2011, 7:50 pm
Falacy? Wouldn't Fallout and Assassins Creed and etc be considered sequels and not "rips" as they are by the same company, just a sequel of the one or ones before it?

At least thats how i see it...
#11 Jan 20 2011, 7:54 pm
Toadfish wrote:
There's a difference between "rip" and "spin-off", "mod" or "clone".

For a spin-off, since you'll most likely be following different characters in a different way. Rips, mods, and clones, not really. The only real differences there are if you're starting with a source or not, and just how heavily the game is modded. Even the most heavily modded game will still feel like the base though, see gmod.

Toadfish wrote:
I am saying there is a difference between rips and the likes of "Assassin's Creed 2", "Heroes United 2", or "New Vegas".

I didn't say AC2 or HU2 were rips, I said they were sequels. New Vegas is a nearly perfect example of a rip. Another developer took over. All they did was change the map, degrade almost every aspect of game-play, break countless systems, and resell something that should have been a patch/DLC for FO3.


DeadStarr wrote:
Wouldn't Fallout and Assassins Creed and etc be considered sequels and not "rips" as they are by the same company, just a sequel of the one or ones before it?

In a literal sense. However, they aren't sequels because they aren't improvements to the existing formula. At most they should be considered expansions. Stand alone expansions that you have to pay full price for and lose everything from the previous entry in.
#12 Jan 20 2011, 7:54 pm
You must be one of those angry people that didn't like the fact that Left 4 Dead 2 wasn't a free DLC for Left 4 Dead 1.

Sorry, but a sequal to a game, is not a rip. Oh noes, the game play is the same, no shit sherlock, it's a sequal. Final Fantasy's games all had similar gameplay, I guess they're all rips too.
#13 Jan 20 2011, 7:55 pm
well theres a different between a "rip" and a "rip off"... ya new vegas was pretty much the same as fallout 3 maybe it's a rip off but definitely don't see it as a rip...
#14 Jan 20 2011, 7:56 pm
Falacy wrote:
In a literal sense. However, they aren't sequels because they aren't improvements to the existing formula. At most they should be considered expansions.

Left 4 Dead 2 improved greatly on the engine from the first game adding new gameplay elements and content that wasn't possible without completely overhauling the first game. Which just further points towards you being an angry person that didn't want to have to pay for a new game.
#15 Jan 20 2011, 7:56 pm
Mikau wrote:
You must be one of those angry people that didn't like the fact that Left 4 Dead 2 wasn't a free DLC for Left 4 Dead 1.
Were there people who weren't?

Sorry, but a sequal to a game, is not a rip. Oh noes, the game play is the same, no shit sherlock, it's a sequal. Final Fantasy's games all had similar gameplay, I guess they're all rips too.
Right, because FF7 and FF12 are carbon copies of each other! Keep using offensive language and blabbering illegitimate nonsense, it makes you look brilliant.

Left 4 Dead 2 improved greatly on the engine from the first game adding new gameplay elements and content that wasn't possible without completely overhauling the first game. Which just further points towards you being an angry person that didn't want to have to pay for a new game.
I'm sure you believe that. Which just further points towards you being an unintelligent L4D fan-boy.
#16 Jan 20 2011, 8:00 pm
"Rip" is a term almost exclusive to BYOND, which refers to content that uses resources obtained unfairly (I'm careful in saying 'illegally' here, because that's not quite accurate either). For example, if someone somehow took your HU source with your permission code and made "HU 3" with it, that would be considered a rip. If you were to make that same "HU 3", it wouldn't. The games you mentioned are rips by extremely flexible analogy only.

Were you writing a complaint about the state of spin-offs and the industry, I could understand this, but your post only reads to me as an attempt to extend the definition of rip to be relevant where it isn't applicable.
#17 Jan 20 2011, 8:07 pm
Toadfish wrote:
For example, if someone somehow took your HU source with your permission code and made "HU 3" with it, that would be considered a rip. If you were to make that same "HU 3", it wouldn't.
I would consider both of those cases rips, since that would most likely lead to 3 nearly identical games.

The games you mentioned are rips by extremely flexible analogy only.
Were you writing a complaint about the state of spin-offs and the industry, I could understand this, but your post only reads to me as an attempt to extend the definition of rip to be relevant where it isn't applicable.
I was indeed attempting to extend(?) the definition of a rip. Not onto those commercial games, but simply using them like you stated, as an analogy. If the game's content isn't fully improved, there's no need to release a 2nd copy of it, aside from greed.
#18 Jan 20 2011, 8:10 pm
I think a much better example of a sequel would be Hazordhu Classic vs Hazordhu II, rather than two generic DBZ games. >_>
#19 Jan 20 2011, 8:11 pm
Perhaps use a different term, then? By using "rip", I'd say you are by large confusing the issue and diverting attention from the actual subject of your post (you can see this in the comments here).
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