The fun times conversation I had with Tom last night (or technically early this morning):
On 4/21/2011 8:42 PM, Strai wrote (in an e-mail to Tom):
Was this you?
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:01:22 -0700
No it was not, but I agree with the decision. You've made your distaste for all things BYOND quite clear, and I don't see any reason (besides the apparently minor income) for you to continue to be a part of this community. I had some misguided faith that you would change (since in our chats you were cordial enough), and tried to encourage you by promoting your game posts and tutorials. That was a waste of time. Continue to insult me or the other volunteers here and the first thing to go will be your blog, and after that, all of your games (the DBZ fiasco has made me realize that even pulling popular games has little effect). I suggest you just move on at this point.
On 4/22/2011 1:14 AM, Strai wrote:
> and tried to encourage you by promoting your game posts and tutorials.
Orly? When I was attempting to get my game re-listed, you threw some vague threats at me, like you always do, then insultingly lumped the game in with all of the other suppressed material. Now its generally relisted, but not featured, or in any other way specially "promoted" as far as I can tell. Same goes for my tutorials, they were moved to the developer section, but anything even vaguely related to development seems to end up there. Or do you just mean you supported them, by posting friendly comments?
> I don't see any reason (besides the apparently minor income) for you to continue to be a part of this community
Its been that way for quite a while, but I seem to be stuck. After the NEStalgia/copyright fiasco, and seeing what is considered acceptable around BYOND, I really see no reason for Anyone to stay around.
I'm not a people person (in case you couldn't tell =P), and I'm not going to give you special treatment just because you started the engine. Honestly, I'd rather never even have to deal with you, but the situation around BYOND is so bad that its almost required, and you seem to go out of your way to contact me. I'd like to think I'm an asset to BYOND, and am probably the most well known person on the site, even if it is for a somewhat infamous reputation. I've been practically the only developer to maintain a steady/increasing player base, one of the few to release halfway playable games, one of, if not the only one who steadily releases new projects and updates existing ones, not to mention, the general "contributions" that I make to all other aspects of the site. If you're just going to treat me like any random user, then I have no interest in supporting something that's fated against me. If you want to develop a working relationship, or even just a personal one, with consistent contact, and/or officially accepted contributions from both sides, then that's another story.
>I had some misguided faith that you would change (since in our chats you were cordial enough)
I'd say I have, just in the opposite direction you were hoping for. If anything, you and your moderators have gone out of your way to hinder me at every turn, in every way, and then you expect me to give you blind support in return?
If you want me to support the engine, then you need to be willing to give it the overhaul that it needs, and to take my advice in various situations, especially since half the time you're asking for it.
- You've invested more time into less worthwhile features than pixel movement, something that is ridiculously basic, and yet not included in any way. Working ass backwards to get it implemented into our games shouldn't even come into consideration, but it apparently does, and yet one of the few features still required to make pixel movement feasible for us, you seem to be unwilling to implement, because it would require a single new variable? All games, automatically 32 times better, seems worth it to me. And unlike isometrics, I'd be willing to bet that every new game created after pixel movement's implementation, would opt to use it. Though it would be somewhat difficult, if even possible at all, pixel movement as a backwards compatible toggle would be an amazing advancement for BYOND games as a whole.
- Easy to use, flexible, visually appealing, efficient HUD systems need to be built in. HUDs are another feature that no game should be able to get away without having, but majority of BYOND games don't have them. Directly, or indirectly, these HUD systems should phase out the need/want to use interfaces, and BYOND games should basically just become interactive map controls. Another change that should be a general improvement for BYOND games as a whole.
- The engine needs a major performance boost. Both on the server side, and on the client's. Things like alpha transparency cause ridiculous amounts of lag for players, as can vast fields of animated turfs.
- Profilers need to be beefed up, and there needs to be network (and possibly other) information profiled - perhaps all on a single profiler. For some reason, no built in functions are profiled by default, even ones that can be overridden to cause such an effect? Myself and others have made various profiler related requests on the tracker, but I figure they go unnoticed since so few users of BYOND are developers.
- The installation needs to go away, be more worthwhile, or be seamlessly implemented into the process of connecting to a game. The pager needs to be more integral, instead of some stand-alone icon at the bottom of the task bar that does almost nothing. If the pager was more equivalent to Steam, then installation would be much less of an issue. A change from what the pager is now, to something more Steam-like, doesn't even seem like that big of a project. You are, at least, working on the Flash client, seemingly to resolve this, but that doesn't seem to be the best way to address the issue, if that even was your intention.
- Stop using anonymous volunteers. This has got to be the most failtastic moderation concept I've ever come across. Its like officially supported, god-mode trolling. Admins should be clearly marked at all times. Any time they take an administrative action, it should say "[admin.name] did whatever", not just some generic message. They should also follow very strict, publicly visible guidelines, and you (or one of them) should review and have supreme authority over all situations.
- You also need to hire at least one team of official developers to make a game, or multiple games, to show what the engine is capable of. As it stands now, BYOND is unacceptably represented by NEStalgia, as far as I'm concerned. As I said in one of those posts you liked so much (zing!), how many people are going to be interested in making and/or playing an NES wannabe? There needs to be something of much higher quality to draw people in, and there should be a dedicated team, that works in close relation with the developers of the software (or even a team comprised of the software developers themselves), to create what are basically tech demos, showing off the best of everything that the engine is capable of. Reporting back bugs, and requesting features that should take priority. These results should then be the officially supported games, used to promote and represent BYOND. If I'm not mistaken, Unity makes use of this promotional concept, as does the Unreal engine.
Though it isn't as relevant, the website's support form needs to be overhauled as well. That thing is just ineffective and condescending.
> the DBZ fiasco has made me realize that even pulling popular games has little effect
Almost all of those games are still up, some being advertised elsewhere, some just floating around in online limbo, all you did was pull them from a hub that apparently nobody uses (which you're trying to threaten me with, and point out as irrelevant at the same time?). Some of those games are probably even re-listed on the BYOND hub, and just staying halfway hidden.
I think NEStalgia has more than proven outside advertising as the way to go. If a game that bad can get so many players (by BYOND's standards at least, pathetic otherwise), just think how many players a well designed, visually appealing, addicting game, with competent servers could maintain...
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 01:38:27 -0700
Here is your basic problem, Strai/Falacy: you are narcissistic and paranoid. Neither I nor the mods have gone out of our way to persecute you. Your post was suppressed for the same reason many posts are suppressed, which is that it was insulting, not only to BYOND but to other users. I really don't know what you are crying about. Maybe it was the comment about it being "bullcrap" but let's call a spade a space-- you aren't some innocent bystander here. If you had left it at the first few paragraphs where you were discussing your updates, not only would it have been accepted but it would have been put on the games page with your other update announcements. Maybe that doesn't mean a thing but it is the best we can do for internal advertising at the moment.
I have never had anything against you except when you decide to call us incompetent or noobs or whatever your word of the day is. It is actually quite comical considering the source. Understand this: you aren't half as intelligent as you think you are and pretty much everyone involved in this project can code circles around you. Fortunately for you, writing DM code is a lot easier than writing the BYOND code. Of course you don't understand this and that's why you seem to think that implementing such things as built-in pixel movement (to a tile based engine) or efficient HUDs in a server-based platform is trivial. You are free to make suggestions but just because we don't implement them doesn't mean we don't want to-- it's just that is not always easy. FYI, we actually do use the feature tracker and happen to be working on a better profiling tool at the moment, but I'm sure you'll find some way to pick that apart.
Anyway, at this point I am fed up with you and am asking you to move on. The system isn't going to improve at the pace you want and I am sick of your insults. Maybe that's not your fault because you don't know how to talk to people, but that's really not my problem. I suggest that you stop developing for BYOND because you aren't going to get any more support from us (and to think I was considering working with you to port one of your games to Flash, like we're doing with NEStalgia, how f'n delusional was I?)
Just move onto Unity already. You keep talking about it, but I know you won't do anything about it, because here you fancy yourself as a big fish in a small pond, and there you will be nobody. You bash us endlessly but no other community will let your games get the exposure they have here. If you don't believe me, go ahead and prove me wrong. Make yourself a success.
Just do it somewhere else.
On 4/22/2011 2:11 AM, Strai wrote:
> and to think I was considering working with you to port one of your games to Flash
Flash is going to require your personal support?
> writing DM code is a lot easier than writing the BYOND code. Of course you don't understand this
I understand that perfectly. That has little to do with you "coding circles around me", however. If I had spent every day for the last 5+ years working with C++, or whatever other language, I'm sure I would be just as proficient in it as I am with DM.
> and that's why you seem to think that implementing such things as built-in pixel movement (to a tile based engine) or efficient HUDs in a server-based platform is trivial.
I don't think either of them would be trivial. I do, however, think they are necessary, and would be much more worthwhile ventures than isometrics.
> Neither I nor the mods have gone out of our way to persecute you.
You have personally taken my games down, for offenses less than what others get away with. The anime guild was formed, and then had rules established specifically to keep my games out.
> Your post was suppressed for the same reason many posts are suppressed, which is that it was insulting, not only to BYOND but to other users.
To BYOND, I suppose. There was, however, a point behind that truthful bashing. To other users? Saying that some scammer isn't going to complete a project that they aren't going to complete is insulting? SilkWizard posts crap more offensive than that in literally every blog post he ever makes, and most of them end up featured.
> If you had left it at the first few paragraphs where you were discussing your updates...
I suppose, and even attempted re-posting it as just that, but apparently I am banned from blogs now, so why bother?
> Maybe that doesn't mean a thing but it is the best we can do for internal advertising at the moment.
It means something, its just not some special treatment that you seem to think you're giving me? While on the other hand, NEStalgia is (acceptably) featured, and personally mentioned by you in the official news that goes out to all BYOND users? http://www.byond.com/members/ BYOND?command=view_post&post=110595
> ...I am sick of your insults. Maybe that's not your fault because you don't know how to talk to people, but that's really not my problem
Are you reading the same conversation that I am?
> I suggest that you stop developing for BYOND because you aren't going to get any more support from us
The only way I could get any less support from you is if you actually did ban all of my hubs. In which case, you would be pretty hard pressed to explain it as my paranoid delusional narcissism, and not your own personal vendettas.
> You keep talking about it, but I know you won't do anything about it, because here you fancy yourself as a big fish in a small pond, and there you will be nobody
They don't even have an established community as far as I've seen, so that doesn't really filter in to things at all.
> You bash us endlessly but no other community will let your games get the exposure they have here
There are Unity games listed on Steam. I'm sure I could make something that was At Least this good: http://store.steampowered.com/app/36000/
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 02:24:53 -0700
1) Yes, initially Flash will work on specific games so we can get the internals working without having to port BYOND 4.0. We are working with NEStalgia and some other games for the first run. I was willing to include your games but that's def. not going to happen now.
2) C++ is far harder than DM, which is half the reason we created DM. I don't know how competent you are but from your assumptions about how easy things are for us to do, you are obviously pretty inexperienced with lower-level languages. That's fine; if I were in your shoes I wouldn't touch them either.
3) Again with the paranoia. We have only ever personally taken your games down for violating things like pornography or blatantly selling subscriptions to outside IP (and heck, we let DBZHU be listed on our site forever even knowing this). The Anime guild was not formed to exclude you; it was formed to keep that Anime outside of the main stuff (and failed miserably). Your game was excluded for the sub. thing, and that had nothing to do with me (I don't think I even knew who you were then). Also, you should consider that when a bunch of people are acting consistently against you, perhaps it speaks more about you than about them.
4) The reason we are working with NEStalgia is that it has shown mainstream appeal. Yeah, you can LOL at how "pathetic" and miniscule the appeal is compared to WOW or Minecraft or something, but it is still meaningful to us and him (and that $10K was an underestimation BTW). Obv. we couldn't do that with your popular games because of the IP issues, and, again, I have no interest in working with you now.
5) You really don't know how to talk to people. Usually when someone works hard (as we have) to make a product you use for your own personal enjoyment and/or profitability (as you have), you expect some gratitude. Instead, all we get is insults and advertising the competition (yet shockingly no movement to actually just use the competition).
6) It seems like we are on the same page. I don't want you in the community, and you don't want to be here. So just stop being involved. If you want to keep your games around, fine. If not, also fine.
On 4/22/2011 2:34 AM, Strai wrote:
As usual, you take criticism less than gracefully. You've degraded into a worse troll than the ones I have to deal with on a daily basis from the rest of the BYOND community. When you wake up tomorrow (or later today?), and realize that everything I've said here was in the right, and how ridiculously out of line you're acting, drop me another email, and maybe we can get something constructive accomplished.
Anyway, I'm off to sleep now.
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 02:35:17 -0700
No thanks. We're done, buddy.