Zeta Rips Listed in Bug Reports

ID:118307
 
Sep 9 2011, 1:27 am
Not a bug
BYOND Version:N/A (Website Bug)
Operating System:Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Web Browser:Firefox 6.0.2
Applies to:Website
Status: Not a bug
This is not a bug. It may be an incorrect use of syntax or a limitation in the software. For further discussion on the matter, please consult the BYOND Developer forums.
Multiple, identical Zeta rips are once again being listed on the hub. Both the game owners, and the moderators supposedly in charge of keeping this material off of the website have been privately contacted, but they have refused to properly handle the situation. More than enough proof has been provided during these conversations to show that their content is stolen. The moderators have openly acknowledged that they understand the material is stolen, but have apparently decided amongst themselves to allow it anyway. I have also sent Tom an email regarding the problem, but he has yet to reply. This "bug report" is an attempt to bring the issue to the attention of the public, in order to force a competent reaction. If this is not fixed within 24 hours, I will be contacting FUNimation.
#1 Sep 9 2011, 3:00 am
I did not receive your email, so you can resend that if you want. Although I don't playtest these games so can't really decide on this issue. The hub mods are the ones who test games for this sort of thing. The links you posted are devoid of DBZ content in their hub descriptions, at least, so presumably they should have been altered as such within the gameplay itself; if that isn't the case, then, no, they shouldn't be officially listed.
#2 Sep 9 2011, 3:26 am
Tom wrote:
I did not receive your email, so you can resend that if you want.
It basically just stated what was stated here, there are Zeta rips on the hub. So there's no need to resend it at this point.

The hub mods are the ones who test games for this sort of thing.
Stephen001 (one of your hub mods) has stated that because "player character icons are also artistically a little time consuming" that he will allow the games to be listed.

The links you posted are devoid of DBZ content in their hub descriptions
That's all it takes to get listed on the hub? When a game makes a point of claiming originality, you should probably assume the opposite.

so presumably they should have been altered as such within the gameplay itself; if that isn't the case, then, no, they shouldn't be officially listed.
Most DBZ text references in the game have been removed, or more like slightly altered. However, some the graphics are taken from official FUNimation games, as shown in the screen shot I linked.

This also isn't as much a question of being DBZ related, as it is being Zeta related. The listing guidelines state: "The game must be truly your own, not simply edited from a "codebase"". Phoenix openly admits to being a simple "codebase" edit of Finale. And even though Finale won't admit it, it is pretty clearly an edit of Zeta.

If you're saying Zeta rips are allowed to be listed, as long as the DBZ references are removed, then I will start working on one immediately.
#3 Sep 9 2011, 3:33 am
The problem is that the line divides a "rip" from an original game can be ambiguous in cases where a lot of the content has been altered. I have not played either of these games so I don't know the extent of that here, but it seems that, at the very least, they have a considerable following so presumably are somewhat distinct from the other (unlisted) clones.

From a practical point of view, I don't see what the problem is, unless you are just trying to make trouble. We don't want a bunch of the same game on the front page and the current system seems to have accomplished that. The fact that there is even a debate over the originality from people who have playtested the game distinguishes these cases from the waves of other clones, which are rather obvious even at a glance at the hub page and/or game name.

Now using FUNimation graphics isn't kosher, and that should be addressed.
#4 Sep 9 2011, 3:41 am (Edited on Sep 9 2011, 3:57 am)
Tom wrote:
The problem is that the line divides a "rip" from an original game can be ambiguous in cases where a lot of the content has been altered.
Yea, not really. Even in intentional, but legitimate "clones", the games are different enough that you can tell them apart without question. The whole God of War series and its clones in commercial gaming is a good example. From gameplay to graphics, these games are Zeta.

I have not played either of these games so I don't know the extent of that here, but it seems that, at the very least, they have a considerable following so presumably are somewhat distinct from the other (unlisted) clones.
The Zeta rip with the best server(s) gets the most players. It doesn't have much to do with in-game content.

From a practical point of view, I don't see what the problem is, unless you are just trying to make trouble.
We don't want a bunch of the same game on the front page and the current system seems to have accomplished that.
It was accomplishing that, for the most part, until these 2 identical games, which are identical to 30,000 other Zeta rips were both listed within the last week. There are a few other problematic entries listed, but most of them go unnoticed because they aren't listed at the top of the page for having high player counts. I commented on a listed REO rip around the same time as these.

The fact that there is even a debate over the originality from people who have playtested the game distinguishes these cases from the waves of other clones, which are rather obvious even at a glance at the hub page and/or game name.
They must be confused by the slightly altered character creation process. I'll make sure to add a stat point interface window into my Zeta rip's character creation process to throw them off course. Game names, and especially hub information mean next to nothing. Most Zeta rips claim to be original on their hubs.

So then, what is the official stance on Zeta rips? Should I get to work on re-naming Goku to Ukog and swapping out a few turf icons?
#5 Sep 9 2011, 2:25 pm
From looking at the listings, we don't appear to have a problem with rips. If a couple of ambiguous games get through, and the reviewers think they have enough original content to be list-worthy, then what's the big deal? Now we should get involved where FUNimation's IP is concerned, since they have informed us that such things aren't welcome here (although they always address them on a per-game basis so I'm not sure what the real guideline is). The rules I'd use here are:

1) Any usage of plaguerized FUNimation graphics should be suppressed (somewhat difficult to make the call here, but hoepfully the coders can be aware of the issue)

2) If a fangame is ported to an original game, it should have its fan-count reset (most easily by using a new hub), since otherwise we'd have misrepresentation. That appears to be the case here.

You are more than welcome to take this existing source base and tweak it to make an "original" game, but I thought you were better than that. Where it becomes a problem is when such listings overwhelm other games, which is what happened prior to this change. I don't expect it to happen again because the community seems to have accepted the current state of things, and those who wish to play this type of game still have a few visible options (and many invisible ones, I suppose).
#6 Sep 9 2011, 7:38 pm
Tom wrote:
You are more than welcome to take this existing source base and tweak it to make an "original" game, but I thought you were better than that.
Sure I'm "better" than that, but I'm not stupid. I've already released one pixel movement project. Was working on another. Was also working on a complete overhaul of Paradise City into an intentionally tile based game. And lets not forget that I converted my DBZ game into a game that actually was "original". But why bother wasting my time on any of that; when I can just take an already made game, swap out some turfs, rename some races, add a new popup to character creation, and get a guaranteed 100 players online? As long as I can find a good host...