The Review System in BYOND Discussion

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ID:133177
 
Feb 12 2009, 9:42 am (Edited on Feb 12 2009, 9:48 am)
According to this topic:
http://www.byond.com/developer/forum/?id=625524
You have to be a member of, I'm assuming, one of the 5 main guilds on BYOND to review a game?

I can see this being sensible for the reviews that show directly on the hub pages. But anyone who wants to should be able to review games, or at least all members should be able to. There could just be a link from hubs that takes you to "All Reviews" regardless of what guild, if any, the review was submitted to.
If nothing else, there should at least be an official Reviews guild that all games can have reviews submitted to by anyone (or members only).
Since the rating system on reviews seems to be back, the page displaying all of the reviews could show an overall average of scores from official reviews, player reviews, and a combined average from both.

I've seen a lot of reviews popping up on hubs and then mysteriously being gone within the next few days. I'm not sure if this is from the writer deleting them, or from a poorly designed submission/review of reviews system, but it seems rather strange either way.

EDIT: On a somewhat related note, if you delete a hub entry, and then remake one with the same name, any reviews that were made on it will be unassociated, but still exist.
#1 Feb 12 2009, 10:43 am (Edited on Feb 12 2009, 10:48 am)
Falacy wrote:
You have to be a member of, I'm assuming, one of the 5 main guilds on BYOND to review a game?

If nothing else, there should at least be an official Reviews guild that all games can have reviews submitted to by anyone (or members only).

Aren't these kind of the same thing? You don't have to be a member of the guilds to review stuff. Just post on a blog and mark it as a review. However, I think the general idea behind limiting reviews to the main guilds would be:

1. Encourage more content and participation at the main guilds, which would also help to keep the reviews all in the same place and easier to find for people who are looking to read a bunch of reviews for the genre they like.

2. Make it possible to moderate reviews so that we don't get quality games stuck with "omg he banned me ur game sucks 0/10" reviews from some random blog that nobody can do anything about, or crappy games with "omg u game me GM ur game rocks 100/10!!!" reviews. At least if they were restricted to the main guilds, there would be a few people who could read over the review and decide if its decent and not biased before allowing it.
#2 Feb 12 2009, 10:48 am (Edited on Feb 12 2009, 11:12 am)
In response to Foomer (#1)
Foomer wrote:
1. Encourage more content and participation at the main guilds, which would also help to keep the reviews all in the same place and easier to find for people who are looking to read a bunch of reviews for the genre they like.

Yes, but most people don't join guilds. There's really no need to, and most people either don't want to/don't care to/or just don't know how to (its far from obvious how to) join guilds.

2. Make it possible to moderate reviews so that we don't get quality games stuck with "omg he banned me ur game sucks 0/10" reviews from some blug, or crappy games with "omg u game me GM ur game rocks 100/10!!!" reviews. At least that way a few people could read over the review and decide if its decent and not biased before allowing it.

Which is why I say keep the player reviews, and officials reviews separated; but still allow free posting by anyone.
#3 Feb 12 2009, 10:50 am
In response to Falacy (#2)
Falacy wrote:
I say keep the player reviews, and officials reviews separated; but still allow free posting by anyone.

It would probably be solved most easily by putting comments on the hub pages, similar to the blog posts. Most people don't want to put the effort into an elaborate review anyway, and they'd rather just say what they thought of the game in 20 words or less.

Then the long, formal reviews could come from the main guilds.
#4 Feb 12 2009, 10:52 am (Edited on Feb 12 2009, 11:00 am)
In response to Foomer (#3)
Foomer wrote:
It would probably be solved most easily by putting comments on the hub pages, similar to the blog posts. Most people don't want to put the effort into an elaborate review anyway, and they'd rather just say what they thought of the game in 20 words or less.

It's not too bad of an idea, though then you'd end up with people having random conversations on game hubs. Maybe if you limited them to only 1 post per key, and still had the overall score bar present.
Or you could maybe combine it with this idea:
http://www.byond.com/developer/forum/?id=687149

EDIT: And just to point out my reasons for making this topic in the first place:
When clicking the "Review this game" link on any hub; I always get the "No applicable guilds." message. So I went searching the forums for how the review system worked. After finding out you have to be in one of the 5 main guilds, I figured a lot of other people have probably come across this same issue (seeing as the 5 main guilds only total about 1,000 members and there's probably 10+ times that many users on BYOND). So I figured a more generic review submission system would provide games with a larger number of reviews.
#5 Feb 12 2009, 10:56 am
In response to Falacy (#4)
Falacy wrote:
Foomer wrote:
It would probably be solved most easily by putting comments on the hub pages, similar to the blog posts. Most people don't want to put the effort into an elaborate review anyway, and they'd rather just say what they thought of the game in 20 words or less.

It's not too bad of an idea, though then you'd end up with people having random conversations on game hubs. Maybe if you limited them to only 1 post per key, and still had the overall score bar present.
Or you could maybe combine it with this idea:
http://www.byond.com/developer/forum/?id=687149

One post per user, plus each user could supply ratings with their post, then the game hub would show a combined player's rating.

I don't know what Popisfizzy's asking "What the hell?" has to do with anything though.
#6 Feb 12 2009, 11:03 am
In response to Foomer (#5)
Foomer wrote:
One post per user, plus each user could supply ratings with their post, then the game hub would show a combined player's rating.

Isn't that what I said o.O As for stopping it on a per-user basis, that probably wouldn't be worth the effort to try and do. People can make new keys, change IPs, clear caches...

I don't know what Popisfizzy's asking "What the hell?" has to do with anything though.

You must have your forum settings set to only show you the newest post or something. Read the entire topic I linked to; and as usual just ignore fizzle, he's just talking down to people like he always does.

I also added more content to my previous post if you want to go re-read it.
#7 Feb 12 2009, 1:46 pm
In response to Falacy (#6)
He said what the hell because BYOND members already have many nice features, and Spunky_girl said BYOND memberships were almost featureless.
#8 Feb 12 2009, 2:23 pm
In response to Jeff8500 (#7)
Should normally be fairly obvious, but maybe Falacy didn't even read the post himself, since he just seemed to post a general description of 'Pop, completely unrelated to that specific post.
#9 Feb 12 2009, 2:29 pm
In response to Kaioken (#8)
Kaioken wrote:
Should normally be fairly obvious, but maybe Falacy didn't even read the post himself, since he just seemed to post a general description of 'Pop, completely unrelated to that specific post.

Fizzle could have posted something like Jeff did.
Instead he made a completely pointless post, with profanity... If you want to count hell as profanity =P
#10 Feb 12 2009, 2:50 pm
In response to Falacy (#9)
It was a fair post, he often makes worse (albeit more entertaining) ones anyway. >_> I don't take it as profanity, or too pointless either (someone would inevitably respond to teh Girl nulling out the member benefits like that), but whatever.
#11 Feb 12 2009, 5:38 pm
In response to Falacy (#2)
Falacy wrote:
Yes, but most people don't join guilds. There's really no need to

And suddenly we've found a reason to continue to limit the hub pages to submit reviews only to major guilds. Actual major guild participation.

and most people either don't want to/don't care to/or just don't know how to (its far from obvious how to) join guilds.

I didn't think the "Join" link in the players listing or the "Join Site" link in the Site menu was that hard to find.
#12 Feb 12 2009, 6:25 pm (Edited on Feb 12 2009, 6:47 pm)
In response to Tiberath (#11)
Tiberath wrote:
I didn't think the "Join" link in the players listing or the "Join Site" link in the Site menu was that hard to find.

Well, you thought wrong. For starters, guild homepages are rarely visited. They all have different layouts; meaning that even if you do happen to go to one, and find the Join link in the player listings; going to another guild's homepage will just have you confused. The site link is OK I guess, but again; its a not so obvious feature, on rarely visited pages. Joining guilds should be made far easier and more obvious for new players.

EDIT: And on the review/guild front. When attempting to review a game; it doesn't even give you detailed enough information to actually know why you can't. "No applicable guilds". That could mean a lot of things; The game isn't in any guilds, the game isn't in guilds accepting reviews, you aren't in any guilds accepting reviews, you and the game aren't in any of the same guilds, ETC, ETC.
#13 Feb 12 2009, 8:15 pm
In response to Falacy (#12)
Falacy wrote:
Well, you thought wrong. For starters, guild homepages are rarely visited. They all have different layouts; meaning that even if you do happen to go to one, and find the Join link in the player listings; going to another guild's homepage will just have you confused. The site link is OK I guess, but again; its a not so obvious feature, on rarely visited pages. Joining guilds should be made far easier and more obvious for new players.

Damn! Once again I'm foiled by thinking people actually have eyes! All joking aside, people shouldn't have to have their hands held every step of the way.

As for your other points:
The game isn't in any guilds,

"Listed In Guilds" box. That aside, not taken into account when submitting reviews.

the game isn't in guilds accepting reviews,

Not taken into account when submitting reviews.

you aren't in any guilds accepting reviews,

I'm in 21 guilds. Only 15 guild links appear. Guilds that don't allow users to post or submit posts wont display links.

you and the game aren't in any of the same guilds, ETC, ETC.

Not taken into account when submitting reviews.
#14 Feb 12 2009, 10:57 pm
In response to Falacy (#12)
You can join any guild easily through the navigation bar at the top, which is consistent (or is supposed to be) for each page. Click the 'Site' menu and click 'Join Site'.
#15 Feb 13 2009, 6:22 am
In response to Foomer (#14)
Foomer wrote:
You can join any guild easily through the navigation bar at the top, which is consistent (or is supposed to be) for each page. Click the 'Site' menu and click 'Join Site'.

Exactly, but to the average noob, or even somebody who never bothers to look through that stuff like me. A 'Site' menu sure as heck doesn't sound like its going to relate to a specific guild, and a Join Site link doesn't sound like it'll add me to that guild's members. They both sound like they're related to BYOND, since that's the Site I'm on.
#16 Feb 13 2009, 6:30 am
In response to Falacy (#15)
I tend to agree with this. But the question then is where would you place such a link? My immediate thought would be moving it up top on the navbar with a 'Join guild' link appearing if you aren't a member of the guild website you're visiting.
#17 Feb 13 2009, 7:16 am
In response to Falacy (#15)
Falacy wrote:
Foomer wrote:
You can join any guild easily through the navigation bar at the top, which is consistent (or is supposed to be) for each page. Click the 'Site' menu and click 'Join Site'.

Exactly, but to the average noob, or even somebody who never bothers to look through that stuff like me. A 'Site' menu sure as heck doesn't sound like its going to relate to a specific guild, and a Join Site link doesn't sound like it'll add me to that guild's members. They both sound like they're related to BYOND, since that's the Site I'm on.

One tutorial later and everything is made clear to everyone.

In all reality, all anyone has to do is just hover over the link to get it's basic meaning. Considering the guild you're viewing is the first link in the Site menu. One can easily put two and two together.
#18 Feb 13 2009, 11:43 am
In response to Tiberath (#17)
Tiberath wrote:
One tutorial later and everything is made clear to everyone.

lol if something is so complicated that it needs a tutorial, then its too complicated. I don't see how to create a BYOND key on that tutorial, because its just as simple and straightforward as it should be.

In all reality, all anyone has to do is just hover over the link to get it's basic meaning. Considering the guild you're viewing is the first link in the Site menu. One can easily put two and two together.

Maybe in your reality. To me, that link being there is just further support of my opinion; that the Site link is for BYOND.com, and then that first link takes you to a guild. It would definitely be more sensible for that link to say Guild instead of Site when on Guild pages.
#19 Feb 13 2009, 11:50 am
In response to Falacy (#18)
Falacy wrote:
Maybe in your reality. To me, that link being there is just further support of my opinion; that the Site link is for BYOND.com, and then that first link takes you to a guild. It would definitely be more sensible for that link to say Guild instead of Site when on Guild pages.

We used to put the name of the site (like "Dream Makers") there, but it often took too much space (especially for people running 800x600 or using a non-maximized browser). Maybe we can come up with a compromise, though.

It'd be nice if the "join" link were standardized but ever since we allowed almost-complete customization of the sites/guilds, the only place we've had any say has been in the menubar.
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