In response to D4RK3 54B3R (#18)
D4RK3 54B3R wrote:

Oh I didn't say anything about massively multiplayer online games. There's a considerable difference between ORPGs and MMORPGs (Diablo II and WoW, respectively).


I've played Diablo II and I considered/consider it a MMORPG.
In response to D4RK3 54B3R (#18)
D4RK3 54B3R wrote:
Oh I didn't say anything about massively multiplayer online games.

Usually, when people reply to you and don't state otherwise, you're going to assume their reply is actually addressed at what you were talking about, especially if they quoted it. You should make yourself more clear.

In any case, you misinterpreted what I said. I said a 3d environment, not a 3d graphical engine.

Perhaps I haven't, and you're additionally blurring the discussion with pointless arguments and distinctions. A '3D environment' is impossible to accomplish in BYOND all the same, obviously. You can make your 2D environment look slightly more 3-dimensional by employing some techniques, but it is not 3D, nonetheless, but a relatively poor imitation.

I still believe that a 3d graphical engine is possible in BYOND, however.

...Both '3d graphical engine' and '3d environment' are impossible to accomplish in BYOND, and any other different name you may wish to use for it. I don't know why you think you can argue this (and you shouldn't, since this is a useless argument in an irrelevant topic), considering it is well-known common BYOND knowledge, which the BYOND Staff backs up as well. Looks like you do not actually fully understand the terms you're playing with and don't know what they entail.

I'm not arguing against BYOND's capabilities as far as other game genres go. I'm primarily an action games developer. I'm just saying that BYOND isn't as incapable as you make it out to be. Have faith in the development suite, damn.

I'm well-aware of BYOND's powerful capabilities. However, don't delude yourself and exaggerate them, damn. =P BYOND isn't nearly powerful enough to handle 3D environments, even in single player. Among many other limits that cause this, it is simply unable to render 3D, for one.
Besides, using a game suite rather than building your own is generally unrecommended for a project as ambitious and big as a MMORPG. Well.... ESPECIALLY a suite that was definitely not meant to be used for one. Neither for 3D games.

And here's a separate question for you. What the heck is Massively supposed to mean anyway? What's the definition of Massive in MMORPG?

It's Massively Multiplayer, already meaning a real MMORPG is impossible to pull off in BYOND, and that's just one property of MMORPGs which happens to be in the name/actual definition, but they have more common characteristics, a 3D environment, engine, or what-have-you, another one of them.
If you're interested in common information, it is customary to search first. Wikipedia is a good start.
In response to The Magic Man (#19)
Well, essentially, isn't BYOND just a chat room with less graphical capability than MMORPGs? I don't quite see how you can call MMORPGs a rubbish genre, when upwards of 10 million people play just one MMORPG. I get enjoyment out of World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Diablo II, Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, hell, even Runescape is fun to play now and then. Perhaps I am just too infatuated with video games for my own good, but I happen to love the MMORPG genre.
In response to Monkeyness (#22)
Monkeyness wrote:
I don't quite see how you can call MMORPGs a rubbish genre, when upwards of 10 million people play just one MMORPG.

I don't quite see how you can miss the point that popularity doesn't necessarily mean squat when being in the BYOND community, where horrible anime games tend to be the most popular. Seriously. The fact a lot of people play a game doesn't mean it's necessarily good. It just means it's popular.
And consider most people in the world aren't very wise, and a LOT of them are idiots, or otherwise don't know any better (may be little kids for example, etc). Evidently, a lot of people like shitty games. But of course, taste does vary between everyone. For example, if you only try games that are the most popular and/or hyped, and don't bother with any game that has a handful of bad reviews, you are missing out.
In response to Kaioken (#23)
I don't quite see how you can miss the point that popularity doesn't necessarily mean squat when being in the BYOND community, where horrible anime games tend to be the most popular. Seriously. The fact a lot of people play a game doesn't mean it's necessarily good. It just means it's popular.
And consider most people in the world aren't very wise, and a LOT of them are idiots, or otherwise don't know any better (may be little kids for example, etc). Evidently, a lot of people like shitty games. But of course, taste does vary between everyone. For example, if you only try games that are the most popular and/or hyped, and don't bother with any game that has a handful of bad reviews, you are missing out.

I try any game I come across, so don't try and throw me into that pool buddy. I am simply saying I love playing MMORPGs and I don't think there is anything bad about the genre. Granted, just because a lot of people play a game, that doesn't mean it's a good game. Although, 10 million people paying 15 bucks a month to play a game must mean they think it's pretty damn good. I'm not saying theres some who don't play it just because of the mass of people who do, but how many do you think that really is? Of all the people I have chatted with on WoW (Lots of people over a 3 year span), I've met about 70 who stated that they play because so many others do.

Talking of BYOND anime though, outside of Dbz:HU, DMU, Bleach Eternity and a few others, I think they all suck. Yeah, including GOA, I hate that PoS. I also think that the popularity of the Anime games does rob the other genres on BYOND. I don't know if it's always been like that or not, but that's how I think it is currently.
In response to Monkeyness (#24)
Monkeyness wrote:
I try any game I come across, so don't try and throw me into that pool buddy.

Never had.

Although, 10 million people paying 15 bucks a month to play a game must mean they think it's pretty damn good.

Again, the fact lots of people think it's good doesn't mean it is. Thing is, many people simply have low standards, and society simply carries it over as a norm (eg: Counter Strike is the best FPS ever, oneone11!) because some people don't know any better.

I'm not saying theres some who don't play it just because of the mass of people who do, but how many do you think that really is?

What? I never said that are people that do, or even commented anything on that matter, for that matter (excuse the pun).

Talking of BYOND anime though, outside of Dbz:HU, DMU, Bleach Eternity and a few others, I think they all suck. Yeah, including GOA, I hate that PoS. I also think that the popularity of the Anime games does rob the other genres on BYOND. I don't know if it's always been like that or not, but that's how I think it is currently.

Well, I remember it's been like that since I first found this site. It's a good example of the fact that popularity != quality. Those games' popularity is simply because most people coming to this community are of the suitable crowd... eg young people/kids, especially those that dig anime or perhaps obsessed with them a little or more.
In response to Kaioken (#25)
Again, the fact lots of people think it's good doesn't mean it is. Thing is, many people simply have low standards, and society simply carries it over as a norm (eg: Counter Strike is the best FPS ever, oneone11!) because some people don't know any better.

Lol, I don't particularly care for the FPS genre, but the one I continue to play, over and over, is Goldeneye 007. Which isn't even online, as you know, just a FPS. Out of the Halo games, I find 1 the best and even then, it's not that great to me.

What? I never said that are people that do, or even commented anything on that matter, for that matter (excuse the pun).

I was just referring to that as because of it's heightened popularity, some people play the game just because a lot of others do, which is really, really...really retarded.


Well, I remember it's been like that since I first found this site. It's a good example of the fact that popularity != quality. Those games' popularity is simply because most people coming to this community are of the suitable crowd... eg young people/kids, especially those that dig anime or perhaps obsessed with them a little or more.

That was pretty much running through my mind earlier. I've talked to a lot of younger kids myself, and they seem to only venture into the Anime genre. I'm not real into Anime myself; Bleach, Dbz, Samurai Champloo, Trigun, Cowboy Bepop and Death Note are all I've ever been able to get into.
In response to The Magic Man (#19)
The Magic Man wrote:
D4RK3 54B3R wrote:
And here's a separate question for you. What the heck is Massively supposed to mean anyway? What's the definition of Massive in MMORPG?

Being capable of supporting a lot of players in one world. A "lot" would be a comparable amount to other MMORPGs, thousands, or even tens of thousands basically.

Anyway, I can't help but laugh at this. It has been like... 10 years now, and Runescape still has graphics that make it look 15 years old. Hahaha. What is even funnier is that they have the balls to call it "high detail".


Also, blahblah Runescape worst MMORPG ever blahblahblah MMORPG a rubbish genre with nothing to offer blahblahblah just fancy looking graphical chat rooms with grindan blahblahblah.

The graphics look great to me, the characters base could use a little work but it's still pretty nice. Anyways the graphics aren't the main part of the game. It would takes years before you could finish everything in RuneScape. Also I never played RuneScape classic but from the looks of it RuneScape has gone a long way from classic to RuneScape 2(current version).
In response to Kaioken (#21)
Kaioken wrote:
If you're interested in common information, it is customary to search first. Wikipedia is a good start.

Now you're just being condescending. -_-
I was asking for a more concrete definition of "Massive," like in terms of numbers. I already looked on Wikipedia before making that post, and it mentioned nothing about how big "Massive" is.

I've seen games with ~100 member player base (not on BYOND) call themselves MMORPGs. And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, there's World of Warcraft with millions of players.
In response to Kaioken (#21)
Kaioken wrote:
...Both '3d graphical engine' and '3d environment' are impossible to accomplish in BYOND, and any other different name you may wish to use for it. I don't know why you think you can argue this (and you shouldn't, since this is a useless argument in an irrelevant topic), considering it is well-known common BYOND knowledge, which the BYOND Staff backs up as well. Looks like you do not actually fully understand the terms you're playing with and don't know what they entail.

If that's the case, then "well-known common BYOND knowledge" has been refuted with a number of projects in the past.

A 3d environment is an environment that has 3 dimensional axis. A 3d environment can still be shown in 2 dimensional graphics, however. What comes to mind almost immediately is an isometric graphical style.

I've created a number of games on BYOND with "3D environments" (Actually, a lot of people have: TheMonkeyDidIt, Derdragon, Lord Raven, and SuperAntx, to name a few).
Xooxer has created a raytracing engine.
JackGuy had a wireframe renderer.
Zaltron is working on a perspective texture rendering engine.
Gakumerasara, Shadowdarke, and Unknown Person have created raycasting engines.

I seriously don't feel like arguing about this, Kaioken. -_-
I do know my 3d graphics/rendering terminology, Kaioken.

And seriously, you're starting to get on my nerves.
The graphics are still garbage when you compare RuneScape to a real game. Not to mention there are only a small handful of quests.

RuneScape is still a game of grinding, not adventuring.
In response to D4RK3 54B3R (#28)
D4RK3 54B3R wrote:
Now you're just being condescending. -_-

Sorry if you feel that way, but now you're just taking things to heart.

I was asking for a more concrete definition of "Massive," like in terms of numbers. I already looked on Wikipedia before making that post, and it mentioned nothing about how big "Massive" is.

Funny, I made sure it did before linking to it. I'd copy-paste it, but the whole relevant part is kind of long, so I'm going to tell you to look under this section - please don't take me as condescending for linking you. I know it is an act of evil, but I did not mean it to be.
In response to D4RK3 54B3R (#29)
D4RK3 54B3R wrote:
If that's the case, then "well-known common BYOND knowledge" [that is supported by the BYOND Staff, as said in the text you've quoted and are replying to] has been refuted with a number of projects in the past.

Oh, yes, yes. Of course it has.
So, now you claim not only to be more knowledgeable than me about BYOND, but more knowledgeable than some amount of the BYOND community AND the BYOND Staff itself.
Condescending who, damnit?

Look, this argument is pretty silly, and the above, multiple links should already (normally) be enough to invalidate your argument - but I won't ignore the rest of your points.

A 3d environment is an environment that has 3 dimensional axis. A 3d environment can still be shown in 2 dimensional graphics, however. What comes to mind almost immediately is an isometric graphical style.

1) Not only can 3D environments be rendered using 2D graphics, but they always are (or, at least nowadays they always are). So what should come to mind isn't an isometric style (see 2), but more to the extent of basically every 3D game.
2) A game displaying in an isometric style, for example, does NOT have a 3D environment*. It clearly has a 2D environment.

*: I've covered this before:
Kaioken wrote:
You can make your 2D environment look slightly more 3-dimensional by employing some techniques, but it is not 3D, nonetheless, but a relatively poor imitation.

Things like an isometric perspective still do not create a 3-dimensional environment, and claiming so, while sometimes common, is simply inaccurate and wrong. They are definitely 2D, and only look a little 3D in some ways. The more accurate terms instead of "3D" when referring to those techniques (and they are also sometimes commonly used) would be akin to these: "semi-3D", "pseudo-3D", "2.5D". Incidentally, Lummox JR also supports this in one of his posts linked earlier.
So, yes, "2.5D" is possible in BYOND. But not actual 3D.

I've created a number of games on BYOND with "3D environments" (Actually, a lot of people have: [list])

I'm aware of those kinds of BYOND projects (although I admit I was not aware there were so many). However, they do not actually have 3D environments - as explained above, they have 2D environments, but simply utilize techniques to make them seem a little like 3D ones. I bet none of these implementations use actual 3D models and therefore objects can't possibly be realistically viewed from all rotations/angles, as they can in truly 3D games.

I seriously don't feel like arguing about this, Kaioken. -_-

Coincidentally, nothing forces you to keep doing it. Additionally, you ought not to, considering this argument has been decided, in this post if not before, and it wasn't too on-topic generally to begin with.

I do know my 3d graphics/rendering terminology, Kaioken.

Look, I'm terribly sorry, but evidently, you do not. It's true that I'm not an expert on the area myself at all, either, but it appears I'm definitely and clearly more informed in it than you are. No offense intended.

And seriously, you're starting to get on my nerves.

I know many people find me annoying because of my strong dislike of people misinforming others, especially the public on things like a public forum, and my tendency to work towards correcting the information if I can.
My response? A) That's my personality and simply who I am, for the good and for the worse. Also, I do not do it for the purpose of annoying or attempting to show others in a worse light, or condescending - as said above, many great people can easily be wrong, and being so doesn't mean you aren't. It's human nature to be wrong, so people shouldn't be offended by possibly being so. If you were possibly offended by me or found me rude, then I am sorry. It was not my intention. B) I do it for the correcting of misinformation and for others' knowledge's sake, which I believe is just.
C) And frankly, don't see this as rude or personal, but I simply do not care much about how most random people think of me. So telling me I'm getting on your nerves doesn't accomplish a lot.
In response to SuperAntx (#30)
SuperAntx wrote:
Not to mention there are only a small handful of quests.

I played RunEscape like three years ago and there were over a hundred quests, did they delete 90% of them or something? Or is a handful to you, like a googol of quests?
In response to Naokohiro (#33)
Naokohiro wrote:
I played RunEscape like three years ago and there were over a hundred quests, did they delete 90% of them or something? Or is a handful to you, like a googol of quests?

Based on a guide I just looked at theres only about 20 non-members quests
But if youre a member theres around 140
In response to Falacy (#34)
Well, membership used to cost $5/month, so I didn't find it to be a big deal.
In response to Naokohiro (#35)
Naokohiro wrote:
Well, membership used to cost $5/month, so I didn't find it to be a big deal.

It is for people that cannot afford it.

George Gough
In response to KodeNerd (#36)
KodeNerd wrote:
It is for people that cannot afford it.

Which is completely irrelevant, since people that can't afford that are people that can't afford paying for a computer+an internet connection+electricity in the first place...
In response to Kaioken (#37)
Kaioken wrote:
KodeNerd wrote:
It is for people that cannot afford it.

Which is completely irrelevant, since people that can't afford that are people that can't afford paying for a computer+an internet connection+electricity in the first place...

Not true in the least. There are people that manage to have the things you mention but are not able to spare any money for Runescape.

George Gough
In response to KodeNerd (#38)
You can say that for any price, either, so it's kind of a worthless statement. Fact is, compared to the price of the things I've said, 5 bucks is nothing, and would be no problem to pay for if you're already already paying for "luxuries"/unnecessary things like a computer and an internet connection.

KodeNerd:
There are people that manage to have the things you mention but are not able to spare any money for Runescape.

Those kind of people wouldn't even buy them then, if they have less than $5 remaining afterwards. Unless they're idiots and can't manage their funds.
Anyway, people who paid for a computer and an internet connection but can't afford to spend $5 would be extremely rare, and your point is quite off.
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