In response to Kaioken (#32)
You're the one misinforming others, Kaioken.

You're even quoting posts from six years ago. BYOND has changed quite a bit in the past six years (I consider the biggest change to be the implementation of DirectX and OpenGL), and those old posts don't apply anymore.

Kaioken wrote:
I'm aware of those kinds of BYOND projects (although I admit I was not aware there were so many). However, they do not actually have 3D environments - as explained above, they have 2D environments, but simply utilize techniques to make them seem a little like 3D ones. I bet none of these implementations use actual 3D models and therefore objects can't possibly be realistically viewed from all rotations/angles, as they can in truly 3D games.

You can't make a raytracer without 3d models, and you can't make a perspective texture renderer without 3d models, and you can't make even a wireframe renderer without 3d models.

Hell, I know for sure that JackGuy's wireframe renderer allowed for model translation and rotation in the three axis.

I haven't used Xooxer's raytracer before, but it appears that it has the same features. I know that Zaltron will be implementing these features into his perspective texture renderer.

How much do you actually know about this stuff, Kaioken?

Do you know the concepts behind the different rendering techniques? Do you know more than that? I seriously doubt it, because of your statement that a wireframe renderer might not even have 3d models implemented. Do your friggin' research next time, unlike me in earlier posts.

I've researched quite a bit of this in the past (3d rendering techniques), such as normal mapping and phong shading, and I do know what I'm talking about.

Now it's my turn to be condescending. Let me help you out:
What Xooxer has done: Raytracing
What Jackguy has done: Wireframe
What Zaltron is working on (you linked to this):Perspective Texture Renderer (I derived the name from an article on how to implement this)
In response to D4RK3 54B3R (#40)
D4RK3 54B3R wrote:
You're the one misinforming others, Kaioken.

Sorry. The one making false claims has been proven to be you.

You're even quoting posts from six years ago.

That's because the more recent posts aren't the ones to link to because they just tell the OP to search first because this is a well-known and well-discussed matter. But, did you notice the 'never' in those posts? Apparently not. That's right, like it or not, BYOND was never designed with handling 3D even in mind. Oh, and, gee, here's more-recent posts for you so you need to come up with another worthless argument. [link] [link]

BYOND has changed quite a bit in the past six years (I consider the biggest change to be the implementation of DirectX and OpenGL)

That's true, but it has barely changed in the areas that make writing a proper 3D game in it totally impossible. Changing those would require basically rewriting BYOND's core, and a much more major update than 4.0.

and those old posts don't apply anymore.

Wrong. Read above. Also see the above, more recent posts, posted after 4.0 was released, still saying the same thing about the matter. Incredible.

You can't make a raytracer without 3d models, and you can't make a perspective texture renderer without 3d models, and you can't make even a wireframe renderer without 3d models.

Again, this doesn't mean anything. You can call those BYOND projects whatever you want that relates to actual-3D-implementation, or whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact claiming so is inaccurate and wrong. It also doesn't change the fact basically the actual loading of an actual 3D model file of any format is impossible in BYOND, or any kind of binary file really, other than savefiles.

Again, if you're arguing 'semi-3D' can be accomplished in BYOND, that's a whole different thing. If that's what you're arguing for (because that's what the projects you're using as examples implement), then I agree with you. If you're arguing actual 3D can be accomplished in BYOND, you are indiscriminately wrong. Read Lummox JR's above post.

Hell, I know for sure that JackGuy's wireframe renderer allowed for model translation and rotation in the three axis.

I haven't used Xooxer's raytracer before, but it appears that it has the same features. I know that Zaltron will be implementing these features into his perspective texture renderer.

a). Read above. b) Additionally, it looks like I need to quote myself again:
I wrote:
You can make your 2D environment look slightly more 3-dimensional by employing some techniques, but it is not 3D, nonetheless, but a relatively poor imitation.

c) Even regardless of the above, you should link to the projects in question to support your claims, and so that I can validate them, and get a better picture of your point. Otherwise, it's just talking.

How much do you actually know about this stuff, Kaioken?

Actually, not a whole friggin' lot, but evidently enough to argue with you about it and prove things you've said wrong.
It's possible that you generally know about this much more than me, but then some parts of your knowledge is clearly wrong in that case.

Do you know the concepts behind the different rendering techniques? Do you know more than that? I seriously doubt it, because of your statement that a wireframe renderer might not even have 3d models implemented.

Why, I never said anything about that specifically; also, see above for the part about you claiming things - you're falsely assuming I agree with you that these BYOND projects implement actual 3D processing in the first place, which I obviously do not, hence this argument. This means your point is moot to begin with and doesn't contribute anything, especially not without solid proof, not to mention, at least, an actual link to the project in question.

Do your friggin' research next time, unlike me in earlier posts.

Heh, I thank you for the laughs. No offense, but I've already proven you haven't done your research properly.

I've researched quite a bit of this in the past (3d rendering techniques), such as normal mapping and phong shading, and I do know what I'm talking about.

:'( You claimed isometric view is actual 3D. You suggested there are times when 2D graphics aren't used in 3D graphics rendering. Sniff, sniff. :'(

Now it's my turn to be condescending. Let me help you out:
What Xooxer has done: Raytracing
[...]

Read above. Indeed, you are correct in stating this portion of your post means you are arrogant - but it means nothing more. It'd have meant anything if you had actually linked to the projects in question, because you claiming they do X is still nothing more than that, a claim, even if you link to Wikipedia - it'd be the same had you not linked. I ran a few quick searches but I didn't find any of the projects you speak of, and I'm too uninterested to make a deeper search; you see, in the first place, I, for one, believe Lummox knows what he's talking about. I also believe he does more than you do.

Kaioken wrote:
Look, this argument is pretty silly, and the above, multiple links should already (normally) be enough to invalidate your argument

Indeed, I hope you're not going to directly disagree with even the BYOND Staff's recent-enough posts, but this is still possible. This apparently may be a case of the "No, I just can't be wrong!" phenomenon; you just don't seem to want to accept the fact that yourself, you, have a possibility of being wrong, just like everybody else. You don't even seem to take the time to consider my main points. I know you are awesome, and a good programmer, and can type your complex keyname in about only 2 seconds. But that doesn't mean you can't be wrong.
If you indeed have this syndrome, nothing I'm gonna say will probably change anything, so I won't continue to argue this (obviously decided) matter even if you do. It'd be simply a useless chain of posts and it wasn't very useful or on-topic to begin with. Even if I continued, this topic would just be locked because it'd clearly be endless because of the above. Worry not, this means I officially forfeit this argument, and you have clearly won - I was definitely wrong from the ground up to begin with.

Good day to you sir.
In response to Kaioken (#41)
Unfortunately for me, screenshots of Xooxer's raytracer are difficult to get a hold of. =/
I'll try my best to find them.


JackGuy's wireframe
Note that his demo is what he says it is, wireframe.

Zaltron's isn't available.
In response to KodeNerd (#36)
KodeNerd wrote:
It is for people that cannot afford it.

It's not that people can't afford $5 a month, it's just that RuneScape isn't WORTH $5 a month.

Forge Naugh
In response to SuperAntx (#43)
SuperAntx wrote:
KodeNerd wrote:
It is for people that cannot afford it.

It's not that people can't afford $5 a month, it's just that RuneScape isn't WORTH $5 a month.

I just assume the people that play for long enough to wish for a membership to Runescape think it is worth it.

George Gough
In response to SuperAntx (#43)
SuperAntx wrote:
KodeNerd wrote:
It is for people that cannot afford it.

It's not that people can't afford $5 a month, it's just that RuneScape isn't WORTH $5 a month.

Forge Naugh

I understand that. That's always the reason as far as I know.
It seems to me, though, if you want the 100+ quests, then you might as well pay for it if you're into it, though you shouldn't have to pay.
In response to D4RK3 54B3R (#42)
Sorry to bump this so late. D5 is correct. My raytracing engine is true 3D. It's not real-time, but I think Jackguy's is. BYOND can certainly do 3D, just don't expect any FPS.

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